Add Matrix Editor

henning schletterhenning schletter Registered User
edited December 2010 in Wholehog 3 General Discussion
hello,

in a world of steadily increasing lighting set ups, especially in the led section, there is a strong need to matrix control. today a fixture often is nothing more but a pixel!

is there any development going on?

regards

henning

Comments

  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Well until they give us a fully interactive GUI just for LED pixels....:rolleyes:

    You can get some realy amazing results using the wonderful and powerful set of features "Grouping" & "Buddying". They're designed to work like a build-your-own-matrix set of features.

    The new Catalyst v4 will have the pixelMAD softwre built in to it, and I think this will be the way to go if you need anything video-esque.:headbang:

    Anything abstract, try playing with "Grouping" & "Buddying". Your layout of groups will also play an important role.

    I feel your pain though....I programmed a set peice for the last Fashion Week here in NY that had 250 LED nodes.:Eyecrazy: :eek:
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited March 2006
    I have an idea of how some other manufacturers have implemented matrix functionality, but it would be great if you could give me a detailed description of exactly how you'd like the matrix to function. How would you access it, how would you add fixtures, how would you control output, how would you apply effects, etc. (anything and everything)

    Thanks.
  • cgvatcgvat Registered User
    edited March 2006
    I will second this request...
    I had some jobs where I had to program a matrix, no this makes no fun :dunce: at all when i look at the functionality of other consoles which have a matrix program implemented.
    I don't think it can be the solution to say use a catalyst because when you got your own hog, i got mine, i'm not willing to use another instance to get a led matrix running and this is not a exotic thing, you got this task on many exhibitions and shows...
    So i like to have an integrated solution in the WH III. Especially the patching of the matrix should be easy, as well as some functions where you can define the matrix, say 10x10, and you can mark the boxes on the screen, can define things like text by marking cells on the screen, have some figures, have some movements in different directions...
    this would be my first ideas about it...
    Have a nice week ! :D
  • jankirchhoffjankirchhoff Registered User
    edited March 2006
    my idea of a good matrix-control is, that programming should be independend from the fixtures.
    What I'm trying to say is, I want to define/patch a matrix somewhere (maybe I'd just add X/Y/Z-positions to the lamps in the patch? this way I'd be able to take a group of fixtures, tell the desk "include these fixtures in my matrix" and the desk would be able to do the rest) and then have effects that I can run on a matrix (red to blue from left to right). In this example, a matrix could be of different lamps as long as they have CMY or RGB.
    I could make different groups to create new matrixes (i.e. split my big matrix into 2 or 3 separate ones) and then run different effects on each of them.

    Jan
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited March 2006
    I'm not diagreeing that a GUI matrix for LEDs would make life easier.;)

    I have found Grouping and Buddying to be very powerful in this area however. The number of Repeats and Buddies really gives much more flexibility than most people realize. The structure of your groups...not only the fixtures in them, but the selection order within the group is also key here.

    It takes a little getting used to, and you have to plan it all out a bit as well, but it's not all that hard once you get going with it. I've found it very easy to make chases etc, that mimick the FX in Color Play and the on-board macros of the Pixel-Line gear with this.
    I too have my own Hog-3, :beerchug: but when I know I'm going to to need to do anything other than color washes or abstract flash-n-trash FX, color sweeps, etc. my personal preference is to get a media server.

    I realize this is may not be viable for everyone in all situations, but I highly reccommed it if you can swing it! Especially the as I mentioned earlier the Catalyst v4 w/ the integrated pixelMAD......if you've never seen pixelMAD before, it is exactly what you are describing here;)

    So having said all that, maybe there is an easy way to create a GUI of a similar nature to pixelMAD based off of the already included Grouping and Buddying functions?

    Any thoughts O Wise Gurus?:notworthy:
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited March 2006
    In my opinion if you are going to be controlling a large number of LED "pixels" then you are better off using a pixel mapping product such as pixel mad or now Catalyst V4. No matter what lighting console you use, nothing beats using video clips that are easily modifiable for LED control. No matter what type of interface is on a console, it can not beat the power of a media server or pixel mapper in terms of creative ability it provides the LD.

    I do feel that lighting console should add some simple matrix control for basic "blocks" of control, but purely from a creative standpoint the possibilities are endless with a media server compared to programing capabilities of so many pixels on a desk.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Plus, when you think about it....if you've got the budget for big LED matrix...you probably have room for a media server too!:friday:
  • DeRudDeRud Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Matrix

    mhmh Hog III and matrix would be fine.
    BUT finer where when a DP can handel a full load of 2048 HTP and unlimited
    crossfades as it was discribe in a brochure in 2003 !
    As we all also know the DP can not handel a full load of HTP / LED !!!
    So you have to rent more DP and when you do this you can spend youre money also for a Catalyst to drive youre LED.
    Painfull but it is like it is.
    So when we see on the other side that some console can handel this and then see the price of pices for there system I can cry when I see the HES prices for an dp and then.........
    BUT I LIKE TO RIDE MY PIG........lol
    Its always hard to invest in a new system but I hope and I believe that the
    pig blows over oure industrie.....You are all HES/FPS ona good way

    Denis
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Yeah....it can be a bit frustrating at times, but every new version of software has been pushing us further and further forward!

    Another cool feature of the Catalyst v4 is that it sends the DMX signals to your LEDs via ArtNet.

    So just hook up Catalyst to your DP and the server takes care of the rest.:)
  • GOGOGOGO Registered User
    edited March 2006
    there are a lot of reason for using a media server to program led´s.
    but i agree wit denis that it is not very easy to explain the customer
    why he should spend more money for a hog III and a catalyst system,
    if other systems do not need a extra media server and also using a cheaper desk !!

    so if it comes to the most painfull situation it looks like this:

    a nice full size grand MA.
    NO or a other media server
    AND...
    one other grandma OPERATOR. (NOT ME!!)

    so this would be a nightmare.

    i think that are more then enough reasons to implement a nice led GUI
    INSIDE the hog III !!

    so please go for it !!


    robert gurk
  • DeRudDeRud Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Hay,

    the other way is in germany: I know many many people they go to MA.
    Last night a got a telefon session with a guy how has a Hog III.
    In Frankfurt they order a drand MA full Size with 2 NSP`s.
    And that all for 27.000 Euros !!!!!!
    Also Procon in Hamburg are now full with GrandMa.
    Jerry A programm also with grandMa now ( Echo 2005 ect )
    So gents at HES / FPS please think about youre prices and performance
    please please.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited March 2006
    All is in new post down
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited March 2006
    Nice graphics Steph! I think something like this is definitely a great way to go!:cool:

    As for cost of media servers etc....we have a saying here in NY that "You don't get nuthin' for nuthin'" IOW - You always get what you pay for in all things.;)

    Just because it's cheaper, doesn't make it better or the right tool for the job.....personally if someone asks me to mow an acre with a pair of scissors, I either turn them down or convince them that a lawn-mower is better. Now as to which mower you need or like....that's an entirely different thing.;) :)
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited March 2006
    I think we have to find something between media server and nothing. Light desk will not do all media server could, but we can find something good.

    i will try to draw it better next week, if any body had more ideas.
  • jankirchhoffjankirchhoff Registered User
    edited March 2006
    I agree that you should use a special media-server for a big LED-matrix and things like that.
    But I'd like to have a simple matrix-function just for some basic effects.
    I think of having a rig with 4 or 5 parallel trusses and washers every 5 feet.
    I be happy if I could just to be able to have color-chases running from front to back, left to right, center to side, diagonally, without having to build tons of groups an setting offsets for the groups and so on.
    My Idea would be:
    - I give all lamps x/y/z-positions in the patch somewhere
    - Then select all washer in the rig and say "take this as a matrix in the x/y-area" ->save as matrix 1.
    - Now put effects on the matrix, chases, colorchanges, whatever and be able to control direction, speed and so on.
    For anything like video or text I'd use a seperate media server or maybe ecue...
    The advantage of this approach would be, that you can put your effect on a new matrix with a different size and a different type of lamp and you would never have to care about exact positions of the lamp if your Matrix doesn't fit in a grid. The desk could calculate the positions in the matrix itself based on you x/y/z-positions.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited April 2006
    matrixpatch1gs.jpg
    Matrix
    1) create table
    2) create patch
    a) no auto, select fixture + touch a cell, the fixture is affected to cell
    b) Auto, select group + touch first cell affect fixture one by one in cells.
    if Column is not selected pacth is left to right
    if Culumn is selected patch is up to down
    if 2 ways is selected first line is left to right second is right to left....

    Matrix for text and picture
    matrixpic1ym.jpg
    select dimmer or/and color
    select a picture or insert test, size is by cell, 1= 1cell
    choose effects ....
    start, first step of effect, right, left, top, down, if symetrical is on, right and down start effect from center.
    direction is way of effect right to left, left to right, both right (right to left and left to right), both left
    symetrical, fixture 3 will do the same than fixture 1 (horizontal effect).

    here it should be:
    Red picture, and 1+3 red, 2 red, 4+5 red, 6+8 red, 7red, 9+10 red

    Matrix for all features

    matrixmov9ii.jpg
    Start palette is start volue of effect, End palette is end value of effect, or use middle palette and size

    Line Start is Off if all fixtures are doing the samething at same time, Exterior/interioris isthe direction exterior is exterior to center interior is opposite

    Line Offset Is offset on lines

    Mirror is option for pan and tilt, to have opposite moving effect.
    [FONT="]Symmetrical is option to have same effect on opposite fixtures, if [/FONT][FONT="]Symmetrical and mirror are selected fixture 1 and 3 do the same effect but with opposite Pan/Tilt

    That's just first ideas.

    Edit: Repeats and buddying could be used to have simple 1 on two ..........
    [/FONT]
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2006
    Tom has posted some brilliant examples in this thread::notworthy:

    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=1847

    This type of thing is exactly what proper Groups, Group Selection, Buddying, & Repeat Grouping, etc. can already accomplish.:headbang:
  • hillaryknoxhillaryknox Registered User
    edited April 2006
    <<In my opinion if you are going to be controlling a large number of LED "pixels" then you are better off using a pixel mapping product...No matter what lighting console you use, nothing beats using video clips that are easily modifiable for LED control. No matter what type of interface is on a console, it can not beat the power of a media server or pixel mapper in terms of creative ability it provides the LD.

    I do feel that lighting console should add some simple matrix control for basic "blocks" of control, but purely from a creative standpoint the possibilities are endless with a media server compared to programing capabilities of so many pixels on a desk.>>

    What I haven't seen yet in the land of media-server-output-mapped-to-LED-arrays is the ability to specify pixel/fixture-specific values in anything resembling an efficient manner. Mapping still and moving images to an LED array is a piece of cake compared to creating pixel-specific imagery. You can mess around all day long with low-res artwork trying to make individual pixels match up to specific fixtures, but by the time you've done that and create a solution that works, a decent programmer will have it already done the "old fashioned way" with fixture selections, groups, buddying, etc.

    The GrandMA does a reasonably decent job of controlling LEDs despite it's arcane UI. The best part of it though, if you're doing things the "old fashioned way" is that you can use the matrix editor for individual & group fixture selection by clicking & clicking/dragging...which, by the way, is a lot faster than typing in fixture numbers...especially when you're making pixel-specific images.

    What I'd really like to see (and maybe, hopefully Catalyst 4 can already do this, I don't know) is to be able to mix and match bitmap-based and pixel-specific playback...I don't know how this would be achieved, maybe through some kind of virtual fixture type & direct ethernet connection or something....which would enable the DMX processing to be handled completely outside the console...which is my other favorite feature of media servers.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited April 2006
    That's what i try to explain in Matrix for text and picture you can create your matrix with fixtures you want (yoke mirror led...) and make choice between pic or text, after you have effects on text or pic.
  • ahelgorahelgor Registered User
    edited April 2006
    This should prob be in the Catalyst forum, but.
    I've sometimes wanted to see a function like "bypassing" the mediaserver.. think that a mediaserver had an extra dmx input(other than the control dmx that we use to control the mediaserver) that could be routed to the dmx output from the mediaserver(led wall) then you could add the "old fashion" way of controling a led array to your desk, and have it connected to that new dmx input on the mediaserver.. so if you wanted to take the desk and make a effect over the ledwall, you could just "bypass" the mediaserver, and use the dmx from the desk to control it..
  • hillaryknoxhillaryknox Registered User
    edited April 2006
    Yeah, that's why I was saying something like a virtual fixture might be cool...a fixture that only outputs to Catalyst via ethernet and would not output to an actual DP DMX port...theoretically this could still keep the DMX processing on the Catalyst server.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2006
    Perhaps this could be handled through ArtNet once we get an "AP":)

    see:
    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=1782
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited April 2006
    It could be a good idea to develop somekind of visual marks for Buddying and Repeat in the programmer, which will "predict" what would happen with currently selected Fan
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited April 2006
    Here's some suggestions

    It would be nice to have a tool something like this
    Matrix%20tool.jpg

    You just place it in your matrix and choose spreading directions...
    Spreading can be continous like when fixture range comes to and end of row it continues on a next row defined by this tool. For example you have right and down arrow selected matrix fills from left to right and from up to down...
    arrows could have also somekind of selection order markings or numbers
    Spreading can be also "sequential" like first left second down third left fourth down etc.

    It would be nice if you could add a group or a fixture range in one pixel

    When you create matrix it would be nice to have somekind of empty space where you throw the same type of arrow tool, add numbers near arrows and matrix layout is created from those numbers...

    This may sound a bit weird...it's 0:35 AM here...I hope someone got the idea...:06:
  • DeRudDeRud Registered User
    edited April 2006
    Hay,

    I order a grandMa.
    I can not wait 1-2 years for Hog III software expansion...the summer is near and also festival / jobs comes up. Lot with LED stuff and for me its to
    expensive to order 3 DP 2000 to drive 3000 LED HTP chanels


    Best from berlin
    denis
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited April 2006
    Denis,

    I am sorry if you think it will be 1-2 years as that is simply not true. We have many exciting things we are preently working on for the Wholehog 3 system.

    Please feel free to contact me directly if you wish to discuss this further.

    thanks,
  • Tom-Art of ConfusionTom-Art of Confusion Registered User
    edited May 2006
    Hi,

    As i'm also very intrested in this part, i can give a pretty good example where we could use it.
    In the setup on the attached picture we used 100 moodlight tiles as a wall. ( these are simple RGB LED units)
    Creating effects with the engine is quiet simple ( grouping and budying)

    but to display text ?
    So we use a Marti Matrix controller, one of the most simple interfaces i have seen. ( and u can control it by dmx ).
    Maybe it's worth looking at it to implement a Matrix in the hog 3.

    As said before if the matrix is too complex and large , it is suggested to use a mediaserver or other matrix, pixeldrive,...
    but for simple setups it can be a great tool if impemented in the console.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited October 2006
    That's my last thoughts on Matrix editer:
    matrix-1.jpg

    matrix-2.jpg
    - Big difference is that 1 part is for fixtures and second one is for pic and/or text
    - i have separate texte and pic to create combinable effects, Split is of course to have the same texte or picture repeated several times by contribution with the axes, split rot is a rotation of splited picture

    matrix-3.jpg
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited October 2006
    is this a good way or not?
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited November 2006
    one more thing is that we could have small cells at the beginning of each raws and columns in order to easily select each one or plusior with pig + click
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited November 2006
    I just had cells than we have easy selection of row and column, for exemple to put fix in editors.
    1qu9.jpg
  • Tokaji_303Tokaji_303 Registered User
    edited December 2006
    I´m working for a bigger company since 4.5 years now!

    Our product of choice was the Hog III and iPC family.

    But at the moment we are not sure anymore if this was the right choice.

    There is absolutly a need for a matrix control !!!:welcome:

    Last week I had a background with 35 times Martin Stagecyclo arrange in a little matrix.

    The customer came up and asked me if I can run the shortname from the company over it.
    He said is would be nice to have the letters running from left to right and flying them in!

    In the end it was only the 3 letters popping in one after the other because I didn´t had the time anymore to programm that!

    There was to much other things to do! You know programm time is getting shorter and shorter.
    I only had one night for programming 4 Live acts two lounges and a rigg with over 50 moving Lights.

    And by the way... No I won´t buy a Catalyst!!!!:mad:

    It must be possible to do things like that easily with such a powerful tool like the HOG III system....!!! :angryfire:

    ...and as soon as possible.

    Why should I programm 2 desks or a desk and a software if I can do everything from one desk!!!
    I agree if I wanne do complex things or have 1000 or more nodes in a matrix then for sure I need something special if I also wanne do video clips or Live camera

    But for 35 Fixtures and a few letters???:confused:

    To name it... with a Mrand GA or a C-Eue for example I could control my normal Lightrigg and also do such small gimmicks in a few minutes.:17:

    So please guys do something as quick as you can. :aargh4:

    Another example : on a huge production 2 month ago we had over hundred Moving Lights and lot´s of Dimmer channels but also we had a Matrix with 66 ELP 60 Powersticks...
    The whole rigg was controlled with a HOG iPC except for the Matrix - That was controlled with a Mrand GA Full Size.....

    Is that really what you guys from Flying Pig want???

    Thanks for listening!!!
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited December 2006
    Jan,

    We understand your concerns and your need for a matrix feature. We do have this and many other features on our list of items to do. We plan to implement features such as this in a timely manner, however I can not provide any specific timeline for when they will become available.

    thanks,
  • Tokaji_303Tokaji_303 Registered User
    edited December 2006
    I can understand your point of view and a specific timeline is not really what I want!
    Okay to be honest it would be nice to have it as soon as possible but something like next year or in 2 years or never would be nice.

    Don´t get me wrong but I think if you put it too far away many people will look for other solutions in the meanwhile.
    And this is a pitty for me since I really like the Hog III System!

    At the moment from what I hear this is one of the most wanted features that people are really missing.

    And I think matrix design will come more and more in the near future!

    just a thought!!!
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited December 2006
    Jan,

    We spend a good deal of time planning our releases and deciding what features should be implemented next. The direction of the software is very important to us and our users and we try to please everyone as best as we can.

    Our goals are to provide a stable, feature rich lighting console so features such as the matrix editor are very important. Over the next year you will see many new and long awaited enhancements coming to the Wholehog 3 system.

    thanks for your understanding,
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited February 2008
    And please don't limit grid at stupid values like 100 raw by 100 columns, if we could have something like 999 by 999 or 9999 by 9999 we will never use but we also be never be limited.
  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2008
    ahelgor wrote:
    This should prob be in the Catalyst forum, but.
    I've sometimes wanted to see a function like "bypassing" the mediaserver.. think that a mediaserver had an extra dmx input(other than the control dmx that we use to control the mediaserver) that could be routed to the dmx output from the mediaserver(led wall) then you could add the "old fashion" way of controling a led array to your desk, and have it connected to that new dmx input on the mediaserver.. so if you wanted to take the desk and make a effect over the ledwall, you could just "bypass" the mediaserver, and use the dmx from the desk to control it..

    I use the Luminex ArtNet boxes to achieve this. They support full IP merging which can be assigned to any or all of the dmx output channels and universes.

    I set up the media server in the usual way to output up to 7 universes per box, then use the 8th universe as a dmx input direct from the Hog 3 with its universe IP address merged onto all 7 outputs, selecting either whichever group of output channels I wish this to apply to, or the whole universe.

    In this way you can control the inbuilt effects of say a Pixelline whilst the media server number crunches the individual cells, or combine media based and desk based rgb programming styles. This overcomes the problem I have when I need a specific state and know it’s faster to program conventionally than it is to find a video source which matches the effect that I require.

    I have been using this setup for years now and it works perfectly.

    Ross
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Hi,
    One of my friends spoke to Highend to Plazza in London (I could not go there myself), he asked if a matrix system would be implemented in wholehog 3 and answer was "no". Is the project abandoned or my friend was misinformed?
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Up,
    it is one of the most important points for me to my needs for my work.

    thanks
    Stéphane
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2008
    Hi Stéphane,

    As I said in an email to you:

    We are still looking into this feature, but do not have a current timeline for implementation. However we may have something in the next year or so that could be of use to you.

    thanks for your continued use of our products,
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited September 2008
    What i'm looking for is a quick and easy way to write a name with fixtures like sunstrip.

    thanks for your answer.
    Stéphane
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2008
    I understand. Right now the best choice is to use off board pixel mapping software such as PixelMad or Hippotizer and trigger this from the console.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited November 2010
    And if the Matrix was simply based on plots? (in 3D :-) )
    So plots could be used to select fixtures, matrix, XYZ, Focus palettes ........
  • MarcoMarco Registered User
    edited December 2010
    Hi, I think, the only what we need is a Tool to build single fixture Groups.
    For example: fix 1 > build Group 20x20.
    A Resolution from 100x100 is more than ok. Nobody will Patch a videoscreen in the desk!
    The graphics for Groups must in this case turn to smaler Buttons.
    So you are able to select every fix by a graphic Way
    The rest you can do with the existing tools.

    Marco
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