XYZ Position Libraries in HogIII

Hi,

Does anyone know if XYZ programming has been included in the Hog III software?

Best regards,

Bish :confused:
  • Bish,

    XYZ positioning is on our list of features for the future, but is not implemented as of now. Have you actually used XYZ positioning on other desks or do you like the idea of the feature? The reason I ask is that in most touring situations I have found that it is easier to actually update positions the normal way, than to rely on calculations. It seems that all critical positions have to be retouched anyway. This often negates all the work of updating 4 positions for every fixture.

    At any rate, we do plan to implement this in the future, but I do not have a current timeline for its being added.

    thanks,
  • Brad I am not sure if you intended this thread to turn into a poll of XYZ position usage but I thought I would throw out my view.

    I used the Hog 2 stuff for a couple of years before the Hog 3 came out. I never really used the XYZ position feature on the Hog 2 in a real show environment. Therefore, I have not missed it on the Hog 3. Like you said I just typically touch up all the positions as soon as the rig is up & I can go dark in the house. The feature of being able to have palettes reference other palettes on the Hog 3 lets me trim down the number of actual positions I typically need to update.

    My vote would be to work on other features ahead of XYZ positioning. I have never seen a poll that queried the users out there to get their priority on future features. I am not sure what my top priority would be amongst the greater list. I know for some it may be richer redundancy capabilities with multiple consoles. For others, keyboard macros.

    --
    Kevin Montagne
    kevin (at) litkam (dot) com
  • Thanks Kevin for your thoughts. We do from time to time poll users in our beta program or directly via email. I find that open ended internet polls are not really the best method of gaining feedback.

    We do have a quite a list of features and most requests come from users. When we sit down to plan a release, we always consider input from many sources to determine what would be best to add next. Of course the opinions of those who use the desk are the highest on our list!
  • Hi Brad / Kevin,

    I haven't used XYZ before as generally my work (TV) has not required it. However, I'm about to programme a tour which I'm not board op-ing and thought it would save the guy who's taking it on the road some time if I could use the feature!

    Many thanks for your thoughts

    Bish
  • Also as a programmer in theatre and musicals, I haven't found XYZ very useful. Resources put into good track sheet and data sheet about fixture usage would be nice...
    Though I understand the usefulness of XYZ on tour situations.
  • All,

    When considering using XYZ updating of positions for any production it is important to consider that it based upon a mathematical function. The coordinates are based upon 3 or 4 positions that you must update for ALL fixtures each day of the tour. Hard edge fixtures work better as they can be more exact than wash lights.

    However you must consider what value you will get when point the same fixture to a certain point on a stage. With 16-bit programming the position is based upon two values (pan/tilt) each with a value between 0 and 65535. So consider that you point a wash light at the upstage right corner.. chances are that you will never get the exact same numeric value for position. The numeric value for its position can vary widely, even though it is pointing in the same relative place on stage. Now extrapolate this into XYZ space based on other coordinates and you will quickly see how fast this can alter the accuracy of the calculated positioning.

    As I said, when I have used this function (on several other consoles), I have found that the time it takes an operator to update all fixtures into four positions and then touch up all real positions far out ways the time an operator could just updated the real positions. Furthermore many positions do not really change on a daily basis (fan outs, etc) yet with XYZ they will be off and need to be retouched.

    However there are some advantages to programming with XYZ in that all fixtures are working in a 3D space instead of pan/tilt values. This means it is easy to have fixtures move around together in the same location on stage, etc.


    Again I am not discounting this feature (it is on our list), but I do know that from real world experience that it usually is not the saving grace that it is often presented to be.
  • [quote=srautane]Also as a programmer in theatre and musicals, I haven't found XYZ very useful.

    XYZ is how the WholehogII won my loyalty. it is now and forever has been #1 on my list of reasons to still spec a II.

    and while the abiltiy to have all your palettes update quickly after a 4-point calibration is both very powerful and very accurate (especially if you focus with XYZ in mind, and don't fudge the Y when you really should change Z...), this updating is only half of the feature.

    to me, it's far more important to be able to program against XYZ in the first place.

    simply put, it's the difference between:

    "pan, tilt, next, pan, tilt, next, pan, tilt, next, pan, tilt, next, pan, tilt, next"
    and
    "XYZ"

    if you ever get a chance to work with a II again, try it. you'll like it.



    it still floors the "fresher" LD's when they focus a pair of frontlights:[INDENT]on the same person
    in two different colors
    with the same gobo
    rotating at the same speed but different in different directions
    slightly in from sharp


    [/INDENT]and then they ask to do the same with a pair of hi-sides. with the single command "3 + 4 pig+copy 1 + 2 enter" you've got your designer more interested in your console than his show.


    programming against pan and tilt just seems kinda sloppy once you've gotten the hang of XYZ. (XYupsidedownZ, anyone?)



    if and when we see again XYZ (R.I.P.), i hope it returns as a more first-class set of functinos. specifically, being able to crossfade through XYZ space would probably get a tear or two outta me. and while i've adopted the mindset of always recording positions into palettes, it'd be better for everyone if that wasn't necessary.
  • the LAD was awesome. those should have been a huger hit.
  • Allthough I haven't used xyz extensively on the II, I've allways found it very helpfull in certain situations ( LD :hey,lets grab all 7's and follow that guy!!) Don't forget it is about the only way to make a Yoke follow a straight line from a to b, independent from where it hangs.
    just 2#
  • I agree with Brad in that I have found XYZ to be much more of a hinderance than a help as far as touring goes.

    For a long running show, install, or house rig then XYZ can indeed be very useful. I have found it to be useful when units need to be worked on and spares don't get hung in exactly the same place....only having 4 points to update in this case can be very useful. So when you have a simple event or show using your house rig, programming can be sped up somehwat. Additionally as already mentioned, on-the-fly moves can be handled better when using a house rig, but I find that is less of an issue on H3 if the fixtures are properly axis alinged in patch and the trackball is used.

    Personally I don't think this warrants a bump in development priority at all...I'd much rather see a whole host of other things implemented first.
  • I think what Bhagat say is one of the must powerful tool ever, think like XYZ on stage, not pan/tilt

    Give it back to ussssss!!!!, its whay the guys with the Hog 2 have this and i don't have thisssss!!! :(

    Amir
  • I, too, have not used XYZ before, although I have seen it used up close on other consoles. I have to say I thought it was a pretty cool feature. I can't say that it is more important than other features that many of us have been waiting for, but I do look forward to using this feature in the future.
  • As per quinn's example copying actual stage position info between fixtures is very powerful on the Hog 2, and works as well as autofocus on wysiwyg, although as many have remarked it is somewhat laborious to setup. There must be a smarter way to implement this
    Ross
  • Quinn, I must say I didn't think using XYZ from that point of view. So, I have to say you are quite correct about the usefulness. I can say I was a bit stupid. Though, for me Wysiwyg and autofocus+focus points has been the thing in those situations.
  • I remembered this much older thread here as well:

    forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=412

    It shows the enhancement ##.
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