future of wholehog 3

dollerdoller Registered User
hi gents,
i have the feeling in germany ,are becoming less.when i talk to technicians more and more switsch to grand ma.wholehog is rarely.the wholehog 2 was overall , Or deceives? and when grandma 2 is commoing...vs wholehog 3...:hogsign:

greets dol

Comments

  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Well personally I think GrandMA blew a huge oportunity to truly re-invent themselves with their new "2" line. The things that stand out to me are:

    - 256 universe limitation still on GMA-2.....better than the old 64 limit on th first line (H3 is virtually unlimited....you hit a fixture count limitation long before a processing limit....but that could probably be changed with software someday).

    - GMA workflow is still VERY keystroke intensive and too many menus to sort through to be productive as a programmer with any kind of speed.

    - price for a GMA-2 will buy 3....yes that's right 3 full Hog-3 desks....plus the Roadhog line is much less expensive than the smaller GMAs and you get more features per "equivalent" desks.

    I could go on and on for ages on the differences and the advantages of one system over another....but overall the H3 line is clearly the best in my mind.

    I personally think we will see the GMA line lose a lot if not all the ground it gained in the next 4 to 5 years....and companies that shell out for the new GMA-2s are being very shortsighted and will have their business eaten up by companies that invest in the FPS line.

    Just my opinion though.....I'm sure others will differ.:hogsign:
  • dollerdoller Registered User
    edited October 2008
    Hi Marty,
    I am your opiniom,i see with sad eyes on events more gma1 .or is it so?how much there is in german hes?

    greeds
  • dollerdoller Registered User
    edited October 2008
    i mean ,how much consoles give it in germany?

    greeds
  • RuedigerHRuedigerH Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited October 2008
    Hello Doller,
    there are too less Wholehog consoles and that is why we are actively selling them...

    But, don`t let this thread go in a stupid disscussion.

    Most of the key operators are running Wholehog consoles including RoadHog FullBoar and I am convinced that we are on the right road.
    Additionally the number of console in Austria and Switzerland is growing.

    So is it that the technicians that you speak to need to be educated on the Wholehog-line and get trained?

    Just contact me and will arrange what you need.

    With best regards,

    Ruediger Haeming
    RSM South Central Europe
    Cell +49-160-96796698
    Mail ruediger.haeming@barco.com
  • nibornibor Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited October 2008
    Try putting the grand MA in the back of your car on your own ? then tell how much you like I will take the Hog 3 any day.
  • aranajoseluisaranajoseluis Registered User
    edited October 2008
    YEEES!!!!
    JAJAJA, I THINK THE SAME!
    I HAVE THIS SITUATION LAST WEEK
    i put my hog 3 back in my car..without problems..by myself.
  • Electric-MayhemElectric-Mayhem Registered User
    edited October 2008
    This will obviously be a rather biased site to compare consoles with, but I think the original poster is correct in that the Grand MA is now the industry standard for what a console should be able to do. From what I notice, most large events and concerts use them these days with a smaller share going between the Maxxyz, Hog 3 and a few Jands Vistas and Avo Pearls.

    I know from my standpoint that I enjoy using the Maxxyz that I had at my last job more then the Hog 3 system. Its unfortunate that the Maxxyz has so many hardware issues, as the OS is extremely powerful and provides a more powerful base in which to program quickly and easily.

    I feel like the Hog 3 system is just a bit behind the curve really. The effects system is harder to figure out and use compared to other systems, and the menu system clings too much to the old way the Hog 2 does things. Its certainly not horrible but its still a bit clunky and weird in my opinion. I know the Hog is alot cheaper then many other consoles and such, but I don't think thats a viable excuse anymore, especially on large scale productions where cost isn't as important as functionality.

    Seems to me that the two main directions that things are going is network expandability and extra features like visualization and remote focus and such. Grand MA seems to have the lead on both of the these avenues, as they are the leader in being able to network a whole system together (as referenced by the Olympics this year) and control a huge amount of lights and such from one location. The Hog system has begun going this direction, but it certainly is behind the curve (no Artnet even after every other modern console is there already). I would include being able to Sync consoles as something that makes the GrandMA a step ahead too.

    I guess what I would like to hear is what is in the works for the Hog when it comes to this kind of stuff. I know Artnet control has been in the works for a while, but what of ACN and RDM and such? I haven't heard anything about current hardware being compatible with these protocols, but I might just be out of the loop. You can bet that the GrandMA 2 will be fully capable of this kind of stuff, especially with more lights will be coming online with this kind of stuff before too long.

    I know the Hog 2 was a great console and had cornered the market while it was in its hayday, but in many ways the Hog 3 clings too closely to that system and in my opinion needs to move forward and branch away.


    JH
  • dollerdoller Registered User
    edited November 2008
    or maybe in the future a new hardware wholehog 3 or 4 console flagschip??And Ruediger i have answer to your mail privat at promotion wholehog 3 , in the past ,no answer.

    greeds
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Well personally I think GrandMA blew a huge oportunity to truly re-invent themselves with their new "2" line. The things that stand out to me are:

    - 256 universe limitation still on GMA-2.....better than the old 64 limit on th first line (H3 is virtually unlimited....you hit a fixture count limitation long before a processing limit....but that could probably be changed with software someday).

    - GMA workflow is still VERY keystroke intensive and too many menus to sort through to be productive as a programmer with any kind of speed.

    - price for a GMA-2 will buy 3....yes that's right 3 full Hog-3 desks....plus the Roadhog line is much less expensive than the smaller GMAs and you get more features per "equivalent" desks.

    I could go on and on for ages on the differences and the advantages of one system over another....but overall the H3 line is clearly the best in my mind.

    I personally think we will see the GMA line lose a lot if not all the ground it gained in the next 4 to 5 years....and companies that shell out for the new GMA-2s are being very shortsighted and will have their business eaten up by companies that invest in the FPS line.

    Just my opinion though.....I'm sure others will differ.:hogsign:

    To right marty! I have done my GMA training,all it took was an hour or so at PLASA on the HOG 3 to convert me. The syntax, layout, look, output and GUI are all better than the MA. As for the Grandma 2, it weighs more than a fully grown man, weighing in at nearly 100kg! Thats a bit ott for a console do you not think? Now i would take a HOG console any day of the week over anything!

    thanks
  • Woodj32177Woodj32177 Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Nibor,
    Relax a bit,
    No reason to call people names,
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
    I think most everyone here will allow that that the MA is a good desk.
    Most of us just prefer the Hog 3 to it.
    Joshua Wood
  • theDutchGuytheDutchGuy Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Nibor,

    you should take a page out of Josh/ Electric Mayhem's book, and write replies like him: an articulate, reasoned explanation of his opinion, with suggestions of what he feels could or should be the next step for the Hog platform. To boot, he had the balls to do this not on a "neutral" forum like the Lightnetwork, but in a place where he might encounter rather hostile reactions ... and right away you show up and prove this point.

    fact: all kinds of big tours, events and (semi)permanent perfomances use the GrandMA. and with good reason: the desk's big surge in popularity started out as a reaction to the cancellation of Hog II, while the Hog III wasn't "ready" yet - the issues with reliability and ease of use have been well-documented both here and on other forums. but MAs popularity has lasted, mostly because the platform offers great networkability, video/ media server options, pre-visualisation all within the same package. and because it has continued to be a stable, reliable control solution.
    in short, the MA team kept on top of the ball, and expanded on the desk in any way they could.
    I'm not a big fan of the MA's user interface, mind you, i prefer Hog over MA any day. But then I prefer Vista over Hog, so I'm sure you'll have something nasty to say about me as well...

    but just because you don't see a lot of GrandMAs in your direct working invironment, doesn't mean that someone who does - and comments on this - is automatically "an industry F$%^#*(^ nit wit ". If nothing else, you make yourself out to be one...

    In short, you're bang out of order here, mate, and you ought to apologise...
  • jabadgerjabadger Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Yes, true made out of panzer tank parts, and ugly as sin, but one of the two most stable moving light consoles I've ever used (the other one being a virt).
    nibor wrote:
    Who ever thinks the Sad MA is an industry standard is an industry F$%^#*(^ nit wit
    I do a shit load of shows and I use a Hog 3 and only see IPC,Road Hog or full boars the MA is made out of old panzar tank parts and lead so take take M&*^%$# F(*&^%s
  • amir877amir877 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited November 2008
    Hey, i love my Hog 3, cuz it perfect to my shows, but i can't say that right now it better then Grand MA...sorry.

    The future is LEDs and Video screens/fixtures, the ability to conect to any davice on the net with any protocol and work it the better ways, the future is COLOURFUL, a console thet can't deal with this can't be on top.


    Amir
    Danix.co.il
    Israel
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    nibor wrote:
    Who ever thinks the Sad MA is an industry standard is an industry F$%^#*(^ nit wit
    I do a shit load of shows and I use a Hog 3 and only see IPC,Road Hog or full boars the MA is made out of old panzar tank parts and lead so take take M&*^%$# F(*&^%s

    Im gonna agree with the fact that that is down right out of order. Just because we are HOG users, doesnt mean everything else is inferior. We should still show respect to whoever else wants to use an MA or anything else for that matter. We are all designers, programmers etc who want to achieve the best outcome for our show... an awesome one! In the 2008 olympics there where HOGs for the servers and MAs for the lighting, im sure they wernt on either side of the stadium throwing rocks at each other. They, im sure, will have still shown each other and thier equipment respect.
  • theDutchGuytheDutchGuy Registered User
    edited November 2008
    oh, real snappy comeback, there. be sure to enlighten us with more of your wisdom...
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Yea agreed. Are the other 267 posts you have made been so abusive and disrespectful? :angryfire:
  • Jeroen_NLJeroen_NL Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Overall hog3 really suits my neads for a console, but there are somethings I've seen on a grandma or other desk that in my opinion should be implemented in hog 3 in a way.

    I think one of the most powerfull aspects of the desk is the uniform sysntax that is verry powerfull, and most of the programming job can be done without to much fiddeling on the touchscreens.
    Also the wide range of consoles/hogpc is great to make the system a know standard.

    But ofcourse there are also some thing that need to be done to keep the current possition in the console market for eg:

    - better networking /redundancy (seen some nice stuff from etc)
    - more fixture calibration (would make life simpler in some way)
    - extended macro capabilities (suits the powerfull sysntax that we've got)
    - away to organise fixtures that work together in the patch (for eg scrollers with their dimmer channel)
    - an extention on the effectgenerator (i'd really like the option to trigger thing by audio-in like done on the grandma )

    Overall I have to say that I'm :) with:hogsign:
  • tedcooktedcook Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Jeroen,
    you currently can associate scrollers with their dimmer channel. you patch it as a "scroller dimmer" and it gives you a choice of two patch points. Although, by "organize" perhaps you mean simply some better way of displaying things in the patch window?
  • shahar shemenshahar shemen Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Hello evreyone.
    Originally i was a hog 3 user and then i converted to a GMA. I do a lot of corporate shows and we own hog 3 and gma and here is way i converted to a gma.
    I love the fact the the ma pc boots up faster then a hog 3pc on my computer and i don't need to go between windows and find my pallets. Wwhat i mean is that if i lunch a hog3 pc then the programmer is a "window" so as the 2 screens. on a gma it is one window that contains the whole console.
    I love the fact that i can patch by layers and then that is the way my groups are coming up.
    when i use auto create just like auto pallet on a hog. on the gma i see the actuall color/gobo and i think it is save time becuse i dont need to rename the colors.
    i love the fact that i can go onsite and use a my pc to load the show to the console, and then use it as a backup with a nsp.
    i love the free visulaser.
    Oh and the macros are so usefull.
    Dont get me wrong the hog is a great desk and it can do a lot of stuff that the ma cant do but i guss i just had bad luck with them. it seams to be freazing on me if i press on the buttons to fast.
    i do love on the hog the color pallet by manufacture but i wish i was able to copy that color with its text and actual color on the window to my actuall color pallet.
    i dont like the fact that i cant resize the screens how i want to.
    i do love the syntex on the hog 3 it is really good. i love the list window.
    i am not a big fan of the faders it seems to me that every time that the console comes back from a show the faders are out of their postion and i need to open the front panel and put them back togther.
    yes the grand ma is big and it takes a lot of space and it is very heavy but their is the grand ma light which has the same number of faders as the hog 3 and yes it is only one screen but that is all you need becuse you can configre that sreen how ever you want.
    I dont meen to diss but this is my 2 cents.
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited November 2008
    Joren,

    You said you would like to see the following:
    - better networking /redundancy (seen some nice stuff from etc)
    - more fixture calibration (would make life simpler in some way)
    - extended macro capabilities (suits the powerfull sysntax that we've got)
    - away to organise fixtures that work together in the patch (for eg scrollers with their dimmer channel)
    - an extention on the effectgenerator (i'd really like the option to trigger thing by audio-in like done on the grandma )

    We see these items as high priority and are planning to implement the network backup, fixture calibration, and macros in the near future.

    As for the better patch organization, as posted you can use scoller dimmers for this particular fixture type. In addition you can move the fixture types as they appear in the patch (and other windows) by right clicking on the black bar and raising or lowering priority.

    We also have many plans and discussion about how and when to improve the effects engine.

    thanks for your input.
  • Jeroen_NLJeroen_NL Registered User
    edited November 2008
    when i use auto create just like auto pallet on a hog. on the gma i see the actuall color/gobo and i think it is save time becuse i dont need to rename the colors.

    this should also be possible in hog, but that info should be added in the fixturelibary.
  • eboxereboxer Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Jeroen_NL wrote:
    this should also be possible in hog, but that info should be added in the fixturelibary.

    I shahar that he is referring to being able to see an image of the actual gobo or a swatch of color, not just the text.
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Originally i was a hog 3 user and then i converted to a GMA.

    HA HA HA, quite the opposite with me!
  • Jeroen_NLJeroen_NL Registered User
    edited November 2008
    bradpepe wrote:
    Joren,

    You said you would like to see the following:
    - better networking /redundancy (seen some nice stuff from etc)
    - more fixture calibration (would make life simpler in some way)
    - extended macro capabilities (suits the powerfull sysntax that we've got)
    - away to organise fixtures that work together in the patch (for eg scrollers with their dimmer channel)
    - an extention on the effectgenerator (i'd really like the option to trigger thing by audio-in like done on the grandma )

    We see these items as high priority and are planning to implement the network backup, fixture calibration, and macros in the near future.

    As for the better patch organization, as posted you can use scoller dimmers for this particular fixture type. In addition you can move the fixture types as they appear in the patch (and other windows) by right clicking on the black bar and raising or lowering priority.

    We also have many plans and discussion about how and when to improve the effects engine.

    thanks for your input.

    It's good to know that work is being done on these things :)

    My opinion about te fx genarator is that you should have the possibility to use an external trigger in it, that being for eg a flash button, timecode, audio in.
    In this way it is possible to speed up/slow down or stop/start a movment bij triggeren the fx generator so you can sinq it to the preformance in a way.

    thanks for the tip about the patch, didn't know that.
  • Jeroen_NLJeroen_NL Registered User
    edited November 2008
    eboxer wrote:
    I shahar that he is referring to being able to see an image of the actual gobo or a swatch of color, not just the text.

    I know, but the bitmaps of the collors/gobo's should be in the calibration info in the fixturelibary first if the future can be put to use.
    The fact is that I've spoke to somebody from Etc about fixture calibrating, and she told me that there now are a couple of guys having there own company calibrating fixtures and Etc buys the information from them.
    So there might be hope in the near future for these kind of things ;)
  • jabadgerjabadger Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Some original FPS guys.
    http://www.carallon.force9.co.uk/services_5.html
    Jeroen_NL wrote:
    I know, but the bitmaps of the collors/gobo's should be in the calibration info in the fixturelibary first if the future can be put to use.
    The fact is that I've spoke to somebody from Etc about fixture calibrating, and she told me that there now are a couple of guys having there own company calibrating fixtures and Etc buys the information from them.
    So there might be hope in the near future for these kind of things ;)
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited November 2008
    I must say it's bugging me, that Hog doesn't use Carallon libraries. It is understandable, cause calibration was invented before Carallon was founded, but it is sad that things have gone this way and the original idea is working against Hog.
    Abstraction and calibrated libraries are a great idea and one of the most important things in the development of consoles, one of the most important things why I like Hog3. But, other consoles are catching up by using Carallon libraries and I really hope that in the future, Hog3 is not the console where calibration is nothing more than an idea which was never completed.

    I kinda like the bitmap images of gobos, but changing them should be easy. I work in a theatre and musical productions, where custom gobos are used very much. So replacing stock ones should be made easy. But, I must say I rarely need this feature. I also think there should be a fast hide option for those images.
  • theDutchGuytheDutchGuy Registered User
    edited November 2008
    grow up...
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I am very surprised that this hasnt been moderated yet
  • theDutchGuytheDutchGuy Registered User
    edited November 2008
    ...and apparently it has been, Joe. and now all my responses seem to go nowhere...

    anyway, case closed...
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited November 2008
    I'v got a feeling that this guy needs a good talking to by the admin guys or mods, because he obviously hasnt got the message. :angryfire:
  • SBlairSBlair Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited November 2008
    All,

    When I first setup the forums here 4 years ago it was done with the principle of little to no moderation and open discussion. There are other forums out there where your posts get deleted if you say something that the moderators don't agree with or if you criticize their products. We don't do that here. We accept all the criticism as well as the compliments we receive here as valued feedback to try and make the products better and address the needs of the users.

    This thread has taken an unfortunate direction in many respects. First off, I want to say that the folks over at MA are good people and they make a good product. Clearly there is a strong market for both products. We are fortunate to have many Hog users that are as passionate about the console as we are about developing it. I know the same passion exists with the dedicated MA users out there as well.

    The openness of the forums often allows for some spirited discussion and debate, and frankly that's what keeps it interesting. Good ideas and new understanding often come from it. However, it is completely unacceptable when it turns to one user attacking or berating another user.

    The unpleasant part for me is having to step in with my Admin hat on to delete posts. It's something I've managed to avoid up until now. We've been watching this thread for a while and hoped that it would take a different turn than it has. I stepped in and deleted some of the offensive posts from this thread yesterday and am removing a couple more today that are in the same vein.

    We value all our users equally, and we obviously cannot host a forum where we allow users to attack each other personally. I'm hoping this will be the last time I have I have to step in with this role and that things will go in a more positive direction from here.
  • dollerdoller Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Hi,
    It was no intention a subjekt against to a another console.more it where are the Travel goes....maybe a new hardware wholehog 3.1...
    And it has barco the same Plan with the Console who HES or in the future more led and video function?..etc.
    I believe everything here know also Grand ma is a good produkt.and one would see with pleasure more hog.

    greeds dol
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