ACN, ETCNet, Artnet, Oh my.

lightboylightboy Registered User
So I've tried searching the forum for ACN, and it won't work...as it's only three letters. So I'll just post a new topic.

This is what I've gathered and believe to be true...I need some confirmations...please :)

-Wholehog OS does output Artnet with the use of a DP8000.

-Wholehog OS does output Artnet from a PC (HogPC) without the use of a DP8000, or Widgets. (Hmm, so what stops the general public from purchasing a cheap artnet node in lieu of a more expensive HogPC Widget?) Or then again...does it not?

-Wholehog OS does NOT output ACN (Advanced Control Network).

-^^Therefore Wholehog OS is not compatible with an ETC Net3 control network without the use of networked DMX Input Gateways.

-Wholehog OS does NOT output ETC Net2.

-Therefore...Wholehog OS is incompatible in every regard at the current moment with an ETC Net2 or Net3 control network...without using DMX Input Gateways.

Anyone, anyone? I just need to make sure the research I've done is correct...

Thanks :)

Comments

  • z6p6tist6z6p6tist6 Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Ryan,

    In order:

    -You can output Art-Net from a DP8000 (connected to any Hog OS networkable console or a computer running Hog3PC) or from the Art-Net port on a Road Hog Full Boar

    -Hog3PC does NOT output Art-Net directly from a PC. The only way to output DMX from Hog3PC is by using a Widget, SuperWidget, DP2000, or DP8000. You can also use Hog3PC to log in as a client on a HogOS network show. (Therefore you can not use a generic Art-Net node to output DMX directly from Hog3PC.)

    -You are correct that Hog OS devices do not currently output ACN

    -ETCNet2 and 3 are not natively supported by HogOS devices.

    -You must use DMX gateways to use HogOS devices on a Net2 or Net3 network

    Let me know if you have additional questions.

    Phil
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited December 2009
    Hmmm....I thought the release notes listed the DP8000 as being able to support sACN. I'll have to dig around and see if I just misread that somewhere.

    j

    EDIT:

    Yup....http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=8638&highlight=sACN
    ...and networking abilities as well as new features such as E1.31 (sACN) output...

    From the release notes:
    E1.31 (sACN) Support
    The fixture link port of the Road Hog Full Boar and DMX Processor 8000 now support output of
    DMX512 data over Ethernet in accordance the ESTA E1.31 protocol (sometimes called sACN).
    All 16 universes of the DMX Processor 8000 can be sent via E1.31 output while the Full Boar
    supports 12 universes. Configuration is done in the node settings window of the DP8000.
  • SBlairSBlair Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited December 2009
    Guys,

    E1.31 sometimes known as sACN is not the same thing as E1.17 (full ACN). ETCNet3 is ETC's own version ACN. There are key parts of the standard required that don't currently exist yet for controlling moving lights from full ACN (E1.17).
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited December 2009
    Thanks Scott...I'm sticking with Artnet until it's all sorted out, but appreciate the clarification.
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    SBlair wrote: »
    Guys,

    E1.31 sometimes known as sACN is not the same thing as E1.17 (full ACN). ETCNet3 is ETC's own version ACN. There are key parts of the standard required that don't currently exist yet for controlling moving lights from full ACN (E1.17).

    Oh boy.

    Alright...so...let me see if I'm on the right page here. I was unaware that there were multiple ACN protocols out there.

    So Hog does speak ACN? But only E1.31? What nodes out there speak E1.31 that Hog would be able to talk to?

    What is the difference between E1.17 and E1.31? Is it that E1.31 doesn't support talkback/RDM? Just a guess...?

    So ETC Net3's version of ACN is incompatible with other ACN E1.17 and E1.31 devices?
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I was under the impression that sACN and Net3 were the same protocol...
  • z6p6tist6z6p6tist6 Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Ryan,

    Can you give us some info on the actual problem you're trying to solve? It sounds a bit like you have an ETC network (of some type) and that you're trying to use a HogOS product on that network.

    From ETC:
    What are ACN, Net3, and RDM?
    ACN - Architecture for Control Networks is a draft standard for high-speed bidirectional communication over standard TCP/IP on Ethernet network infrastructure. ACN is an open-ended suite of protocols used between network devices for the purposes of greater and more adaptive control in theater applications.

    Net3 - Net3 is ETC's implementation of a superset of standard ACN interoperability profiles (the ‘rules’ for how different devices will work together) and additional communication between devices that is not yet specified or standardized. ETC's stance is that communication which falls outside of current interoperability profiles will be documented for public use.

    RDM - Remote Device Management is a protocol enhancement to DMX512 that will allow low-speed bidirectional communication between a system controller and attached RDM-compliant devices over a standard DMX line. This protocol will allow configuration, status monitoring, and management of these devices. It will have a small impact on the DMX refresh rate and should not disturb the normal operation of standard DMX devices that do not recognize the RDM protocol.

    http://www.etcconnect.com/product.overview.aspx?ID=20094

    ETC Net3 is effectively an ACN network where ETC has added non-standard device interactions between their products.

    sACN has been referred to as a 'lightweight' DMX-over-Ethernet standard and could be considered a subset of the full ACN protocol. In this sense, sACN is a very similar protocol to Art-Net (in the eyes of the end user).

    Both Art-Net and sACN (also called 'Streaming DMX') can be output from the Fixture Link of a HogOS product (currently Full Boar or DP8000).

    From the 3.1.0 Release Notes:
    E1.31 (sACN) Support
    The fixture link port of the Road Hog Full Boar and DMX Processor 8000 now support output of
    DMX512 data over Ethernet in accordance the ESTA E1.31 protocol (sometimes called sACN).
    All 16 universes of the DMX Processor 8000 can be sent via E1.31 output while the Full Boar
    supports 12 universes. Configuration is done in the node settings window of the DP8000.

    http://livedesignonline.com/news/draft_standard_dmx_data_public_review_011907/

    There is not currently an implementation of Talkback/RDM built into HogOS.

    -Phil
  • z6p6tist6z6p6tist6 Registered User
    edited December 2009
    lightboy wrote: »
    I was under the impression that sACN and Net3 were the same protocol...

    ETC refers to Net3 as a "superset" of ACN:
    Net3 is ETC's implementation of a superset of standard ACN interoperability profiles (the ‘rules’ for how different devices will work together) and additional communication between devices that is not yet specified or standardized. ETC's stance is that communication which falls outside of current interoperability profiles will be documented for public use.

    From Live Design:
    BSR E1.31 is a simple protocol that offers functionality comparable to existing DMX512 over Ethernet protocols, but with the advantages of compatibility with ANSI E1.17-2006 and easy implementation on managed networks. Device Management Protocol over Session Data Transport, borrowed from the ANSI E1.17 protocol suite, provides a mechanism for streaming DMX-type data intermixed with random access data and high-speed feedback in a flexible and scalable way.

    So, sACN would really be a subset of ACN, which might make it (in ETC's view) a sub-subset of Net3.
  • edited December 2009
    As of software version 3.1.0 and newer, the Hog supports E1.31 (sometimes called sACN). Consoles that can output Art-Net can also output E1.31. I fact, you can output DMX, Art-Net, and E1.31 simultaneously (up to 12 universes on an RHFB and 16 on a DP8000).

    Functionally, E1.31 is very similar to Art-Net. It encapsulates DMX data and transports it over an IP network. The major technical advantage of E1.31 is that it supports multicast transmission which is more efficient in terms of network bandwidth for large systems. (provided your switches support IGMP snooping). It also adds a priority field which allows a limited degree of "Take Control" functionality in a multi-controller environment.

    In one sense, E1.31 is ACN. ACN is designed to carry arbitrary types of data, anything from light cues to audio data. E1.31 basically uses ACN to carry DMX data. It's not ACN in its full glory, but it is a very real, and useful.


    Net3 (AKA ETCnet3) is ETC's Suite of network protocols. It includes many components, but one of those components is transporting DMX. The good news is that Net3 uses E1.31 to transport DMX. The bad news is that the current Net3 gateway software uses an older (draft) version of E1.31 standard as indicated in the following document:

    http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/relnotes/Net3_2_4Port_Gateway_v2.0.0-v4.0.5_RelNote.pdf
    "The software is compatible with all Net3 products powered by ACN that meet or exceed ... the V0.20 draft specification of BSR E1.31 Streaming ACN (sACN)."

    The Hog supports the final released version of ANSI E1.31 - 2009.

    I'm sure the Net3 gateway software will be updated to support the release version in the near future. ETC was instrumental in developing the E1.31 standard, and their draft implementation helped shape the protocol.
  • z6p6tist6z6p6tist6 Registered User
    edited December 2009
    From the ESTA standards web site:
    ANSI E1.17-2006, Entertainment Technology - Architecture for Control Networks (ACN), is a suite of documents that specifies an architecture, including protocols and language, which may be configured and combined with other standard protocols to form flexible, networked audio, lighting, or other control systems. It can be implemented on networks that support UDP, IP, and related protocols. It is not bound to Ethernet as a transport medium, but Ethernet is an obvious choice.
    ANSI E1.31 - 2009, Entertainment Technology – Lightweight streaming protocol for transport of DMX512 using ACN, describes a way of transporting DMX512-type data over Ethernet using ACN's (ANSI E1.17) Session Data Transport mechanism. The DMX512-type streaming data can be intermixed with random access data and high speed feedback in a flexible and scalable way on a network.
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    I don't have a problem per se...I'm only opening discussion regarding whether a Net3 Network and HogOS can speak to each other.

    And per ETC's wiki...

    http://www.etcconnect.com/Community/wikis/products/etc-net3-products.aspx

    "Net3 uses ACN for configuration, inter-product communication and error reporting. For transport of level data (DMX-style level information), Net3 uses Streaming ACN, which is a simplified subset of ACN, designed purely to transport DMX type information to simple end devices."

    So if the DP8000/FB can output sACN (E1.31)...and Net3 is essentially sACN (E1.31)...then that concludes that HogOS can output values to Net3 nodes...

    Correct? Again, not a problem...I'm just trying to figure out for future planning, if these two products can currently work together.

    And I am aware that HogOS does not support RDM.
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Perfect Eric. Thanks so much. That's what I thought...(and feared)...

    I appears as if they are only a few drafts off. It shouldn't be too hard for them to bring their protocol current...hopefully.

    So HES/FP is current on drafts...Net3 is not. At least I have somewhere to go with that.

    So is there anyone as of current that has used the sACN functionality on a WholeHog? If so...what types of products/fixtures on the market would it speak to? Pathport nodes perhaps? (As they also support a sACN standard...unsure which draft, however, I believe they are current...)
  • edited December 2009
    E1.31 is still a very new protocol. The final version was only published recently, and a number of products implemented drafts along the way. We just got lucky in that we implemented Draft 3 and that's what became the final document (with minor editorial changes).

    Light Converse has a version that works, but you may have to ask for it specifically. LC implemented a draft version some time ago, and I'm not sure if the current release has the updates to final or not.

    I don't know what Pathport's status is, but I'm sure that both they and ETC will update to final in the near future.

    For the more technically minded among you: The Wireshark disector for ACN has not been updated to the final version of E1.31. It can read the outer-most ACN structure, but you'll have to decode the hex payload for yourself.
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited December 2009
    FYI...

    I just happened to write an article in the November PLSN all about E1.31.. You can find it on-line at: http://www.plsn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4897&Itemid=40

    I explain the capabilities as well as the naming convections associated with it (sACN). I am sure that you will also recognize many that I quoted in the article as they are also part of this thread...
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Wonderful!

    I hope this thread was helpful to more people than just myself. I think we've covered quite a bit of ground.
  • edited December 2009
    If you have an interest in entertainment control protocols, I'd encourage you to get involved in the ESTA Technical Standards Program. The TSP is the group charged with developing these kinds of standards, and improving interoperability.

    http://www.esta.org/tsp/about/index.html

    One example is the upcoming plugfest in Dallas this January. At this event, we'll have gear from many different manufacturers, plug it all in, and make sure it works. It's free, open to anyone, and and great chance to learn about protocols. Drop me a note if you'd like more information.

    http://www.rdmprotocol.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1921

    Personally, I'll be bringing both RDM and E1.31 equipment
  • lightboylightboy Registered User
    edited December 2009
    Eric, I may very well contact you regarding that! I'd be incredibly interested.

    I did check, and Pathport firmware is also draft E1.31 (sACN) and not final. This way they stay compatible with Net3. Hopefully everyone will be current soon!
  • stephenwykerstephenwyker Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited January 2012
    bump- Can i send anything out of my DP8k via ethernet that my new etc rack (with a cem3 and net3 support) will support?
  • edited January 2012
    Can i send anything out of my DP8k via ethernet that my new etc rack (with a cem3 and net3 support) will support?

    Yes, the DP8000 and RHFB can send E1.31 (A.K.A. "sACN") directly to an ETC Net3 system. I've not tested the CEM3 specifically, but I know it works with other Net3 devices.
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