Putting mulitple network protocals through the same switch..

Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
I am planning a show using a Full Boar and 2 Hippo's...

I will have a Critter FOH to remotely manage the full size Hippo (stage or HD.. have not decided yet) over Hippo-Net. Right next to the FB too...

Then I will have the FB outputting Hog-Net to DPs in the stage area... and furthermore Art-Net to the Full size Hippo to control it off DMX. (The critter is purely to monitor the full size Hippo so I can then perform certain remote tasks such as on/off)

My question is... can I (or is it advisable not to) run Hog-Net, Hippo-Net and Art-Net all through the same switch FOH to save on cabling and switches...

I did PM Eric about this... but he suggested that I put it here so all of the users can have the benefit of his knowledge (and others).

So... has anybody had any good or bad experiences doing this or something similar?

Thanks,

Comments

  • ryanwilkinsonryanwilkinson Registered User
    edited August 2009
    You should look into using VLANs and decent switches. Using a gigabit link between FOH and the stage racks will have plenty of throughput of data for uploading as well as hognet and artnet. I wouldn't recommend putting artnet in with anything else since its protocol blasts packets everywhere and can get messy.

    Take a look at the HP Procurve switches. I personally have the 1800 since it is fanless. It is only a layer two which is all you would need. You set portions of the switch ports to different VLANs (one Hognet, one Artnet, one Hippo) and then a pair of ports (one for backup) to be a trunk port on both switches which will carry all 3 like a pipeline. You can do up to 64 individual VLAN's on it, which is way more ports then you have. Email me if you have more questions about it. I wouldn't recommend any netgear switches. The fans seize up and then they won't replace them. The procurves have next day advanced replacement for the period you own the switch (lifetime). It is also pretty cost effective. And on a side note, you may have to set the Artnet ports to be locked at 10mbit or 100 mbit as some devices don't like 1gig. Most will auto sense to the proper setting.

    Ryan
  • Unknown Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    edited August 2009
    This thread has a lot of explanation about the problem with mixing Art-Net and Hog-Net on the same wire.
    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=7105

    I've never used Hippo-Net, so I can't tell you how it uses the network. If most of its communication is unicast traffic, then it should be safe to share the network. If it's broadcast, then you'll be safest to keep it isolated. If it's multicast, then the ideal is to have a switch that supports IGMP snooping. But since it sounds like you'll be on an relatively small All-Gigabit network, you can probably get away without IGMP.

    If you're only using Art-Net to control media servers, then you can setup the Hog to Unicast Art-Net to them, and avoid the broadcast problem alltogether.

    The reason I recommend multiple switches is that it's easy to keep track of. Use one swith with all red wires for Art-Net, and another with all blue wires for Hog-Net (or pick your own color coding). Then you know what traffic is what at a glance.

    But if you have extra time, and a managed switch, you can use VLANs to segment traffic on a single switch.
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Thanks guys... I think colour coding switches may well help... if not and the LD decides he wants FOH tidy I may well drop you an email Ryan...

    Thanks,
  • ryanwilkinsonryanwilkinson Registered User
    edited August 2009
    Awesome. As a side note, these switches can trunk together using more then one ethernet cable. Its nice because it offers more throughput between them and acts as a backup. If someone steps on one of the cat5 cables, it only lessens the throughput keeping your show going. You can use a max of 8 ports for a trunk according to the manual. I don't think you would use 8 cat5 cables between them, but you never know.
  • chuffchuff Registered User
    edited August 2010
    I know I am resurrecting this thread, but I have a question...

    I have been working on an install project where the building was supposed to run some conduit or cable tray from point A (console) to point B (DP 8000), but for some undetermined reason, that never happened. There is no clean way for me to run my own hard ethernet line (yet); however, the building is networked and wired more than anything I have ever seen, and there exists building network access at both points. The building IT manager assigned me my own VPN, gave me a set of IP's for the console and DP, and the gateway IP's for the switches each was attached to (basically the console is on a different switch than the DP, and they are connected by a fiber link). Long story short, console and DP8k aren't talking. When I plug in two computers in these ports, they computers can see each other, ping each other, etc.

    Is there something I should tell the IT admin to do? No ports are blocked, and I know my IP settings work when connected through a small router or directly via a cross over. I do have the alternative of running a cable directly in a messy fashion, but I would really like the project to be as clean as possible. Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Chris
  • erockerock Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Do the two connections, the one from the DP and the console run to the same patchbay? Can they just be taken off the buildings network and directly connected with a short patch cable or even a crossover cable so you don't need a switch so that you bypass the buildings network altogether but use the cabling.

    Eric
  • chuffchuff Registered User
    edited August 2010
    erock;48927 said:
    Do the two connections, the one from the DP and the console run to the same patchbay? Can they just be taken off the buildings network and directly connected with a short patch cable or even a crossover cable so you don't need a switch so that you bypass the buildings network altogether but use the cabling.

    Eric
    No, the two switches are connected to the the main building infrastructure via fiber links.
  • Unknown Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    edited August 2010
    > The building IT manager assigned me my own VPN,

    Was it a VPN or a VLAN?

    > gave me a set of IP's for the console and DP, and
    > the gateway IP's for the switches each was attached to

    You'll need to find out if the building's infrastructure switches are really doing switching (aka "Layer 2 switching"), or if they're acting as Routers ("Layer 3 Switching"). If you need a gateway IP, there's a good possibility that they are Routing. What is the IP address, Netmask, and Gateway for each device that the IT manager gave you? That may give us some information

    Hog-Net communication makes heavy use of multicast. It can be used in a routed network (Layer 3 network), but multicast routing is notoriously difficult to setup. Unless you have a full-time networking professional on staff who understands "PIM Sparse Mode" style routing, I'd suggest you find a simpler solution.

    If it's a purely switched network (Layer 2), you'll need to examine the VLAN setup to make sure you have both the console and DP8000 in the same broadcast domain. Also make sure that Broadcast Control and Multicast Control are turned off. These go by many names including "Storm Control", "Rate Limiting" and "Flood Control".

    Find out if the building has spare fibers between wiring closets. It's typical to install a 6 or 12 pair fiber even if you only need one pair. It may be simpler in the long run to setup a separate network for your lighting control.

    Can you post more details about the application? It may help others work out a solution.
  • Abbe RPM Digital LightingAbbe RPM Digital Lighting Registered User
    edited August 2010
    ryanwilkinson;40487 said:
    Awesome. As a side note, these switches can trunk together using more then one ethernet cable. Its nice because it offers more throughput between them and acts as a backup. If someone steps on one of the cat5 cables, it only lessens the throughput keeping your show going. You can use a max of 8 ports for a trunk according to the manual. I don't think you would use 8 cat5 cables between them, but you never know.
    I would like to stress the fact that CAT5 wire will not carry GB ethernet, it needs to be CAT5E or CAT6.
    I have had to much trouble with this in the past not to meantion this even to obviously knowable people like you.
  • Abbe RPM Digital LightingAbbe RPM Digital Lighting Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Hi Joe,

    A Hippo has two Network Ports, one for Artnet and one for Hipponet.
    They have done this for a very good reason, and it creates a good possibility to section your shownetworks well.

    We use the hippo technology in the EMP of the DML-1200 and i have personally done a lot of mixing of networks with those. I still believe that Sectioning Live Control Network protocols like Artnet from Streaming, Information/Management protocols (HippoNet) are they way to go, for ease of problemsolving and set-up reasons.
    If this is an installation, you typically have more time to deal with configuring your switches, and then it might be another story.

    So in this case my system would look like:
    RHFB FixtureNet to 100mB Switch the FOH Hippo Network 1 and Stage Hippo Network 1
    FOH Hippo Network 2 to Stage Hippo Network 2 (straight wire if under 100m)

    This Should create a very small and efficient set-up.

    Good Luck
  • Unknown Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    edited August 2010
    Abbe RPM Digital Lighting;48938 said:
    I would like to stress the fact that CAT5 wire will not carry GB ethernet, it needs to be CAT5E or CAT6.
    IEEE 802.3ab (The standard that defines gigabit ethernet) is designed to run over Category 5 cable. Compatibility with existing cat5 infrastructure was an important design criteria for the standard.

    http://standards.ieee.org/announcements/802.3ab.html

    There are many reasons you may have had trouble with it, it can work. In the early days of Cat5, many installers didn't understand what it takes to properly install high speed cabling. They thought you could treat it like telephone wire. This led to many facilities with wiring that uses cat5 cable, but doesn't meed cat5 requirements.
  • Abbe RPM Digital LightingAbbe RPM Digital Lighting Registered User
    edited August 2010
    Hi Eric, i am aware of what the Standard prescribes and says. My comment is from several years of installing and problemsolving peoples networks.
    Believe me, there is Loads of "CAT5" printed wire out there who will NOT carry a GB network, what ever it says on the paper...
    Not to say that there is not other reasons for problems in a network, like poorly crimped connectors, wrong connectors compared to the wire, wrong connector to the tool used etc.
  • Unknown Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    edited August 2010
    chuff;48926 said:
    I have been working on an install project...
    Have you been able to get any more information about the network setup?
  • chuffchuff Registered User
    edited August 2010
    ericthegeek;49000 said:
    Have you been able to get any more information about the network setup?

    Yes, the long and short of it boiled down to it was easier to come up with a separate line solution. When I kept bugging the IT guy enough they re-prioritized the work on running cable trays :)
  • Unknown Users Awaiting Email Confirmation
    edited August 2010
    chuff;49012 said:
    When I kept bugging the IT guy enough they re-prioritized the work on running cable trays :)
    That'll work too... Glad you got what you needed.
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