intensity effect overrides new to Hog III

loebusloebus Registered User
So this is something that has driven me crazy since moving to Hog III, and one of the few places where I really feel they "broke" something with the new OS. Because there are never enough faders, when punting a show one thing I do is record intensity of a group into cue 1 of a cuelist that has other info on it, for example color, for that same group. So I can use the fader to control intensity, the cuelist buttons to change colors. Then on another fader I may do a stack of intensity effects, "slow, med, fast," etc. That way I can easily switch between an intensity effect and regular intensity control on the main intensity control fader.
What is killing me is that now if I change a color while running an intensity effect, the effect will stop running, even if the main intensity fader is down because the new cue has tracking intensity info. On Hog II you could set both faders to use HTP and avoid this, but with Hog III setting a stack of intensity effects to use HTP will disable the effects.
You might think setting the options to 'persist on override' on one or the other or both of the cuelists would fix this: nope. (Not really sure what that option is useful for then...)
The workaround I've come up with is to change the Halt button to Assert, then quickly reasserting the effect after I change the color. But this is annoying to have to do, not to mention disabling the backup functionality of the Halt button.

Comments

  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Have tried to change cuelist priority? (effect cuelist priority higher or color cuelist priority lower)
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    changing priority just completely disables the lower priority intensity
  • SfeerPeerSfeerPeer Registered User
    edited April 2009
    maybe set fader to ICFB ?
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I have no problem,
    cuelist one playback priority 0
    Cue 1 Full + cyan
    Cue 2 Magenta
    Cue 3 Yellow

    Cuelist 2 playback priority 10 + persist on Override
    Cue 1 intesity effect

    When cuelis 2 cue 1 is active I can run all cues off Cuelist 2 with out disturbing cuelist 2 effect.

    Hope this help
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Right, but as I mentioned, increasing the priority of one cuelist disables the intensity control of the other. In your scenario I can now change color without affecting the intensity chase, but now have no intensity control via the fader on the color stack.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Hey Brooke,

    On your cuelist with the Intensity FX....make sure that you knockout any Intensity info from the cues in that list....so there is only FX info there. Then make sure you turn on "Pile-add Effects" under Cuelist options.

    Your base-value for the FX will now be whatever your fader position is on the other list.

    Hope this helps. :)
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Thanks Marty, but that isn't quite what I'm trying to accomplish. In your scenario, I would lose the ability to override the intensity effects at will just by bringing up my main intensity fader, indeed I would lose all regular intensity control. That fader would essentially just be for base value control of the effect.
    I'm trying to have one fader that controls regular intensity, another that controls the intensity of the effect. I don't need to adjust the base values of the effect, because using HTP, if I have the main intensity fader up to 50%, and the intensity FX fader to full, the effect will run between 50% and full. Adjusting the main intensity handle adjusts the apparent size of the effect. I can bring either handle up or down without re-executing a cue to control the effect or regular intensity.
    The problem is when I have other info in the main intensity handle (color, position, gobo, anything) changing that cue steps on the intensity effect. Essentially, the root of the issue seems to be the HTP functionality isn't quite fully there (unlike Hog II, I hate to reiterate). It is treating the intensity parameter like LTP instead, though it is set to HTP.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Gotcha....OK, ignore my earlier suggestion then.

    Try this....it should work:

    - Turn off HTP on both Lists
    - Turn on Persist on Override for both Lists
    - Set the priority to the same level on both Lists (0 is fine)
    - On your Color/Full Intensity list put an Assert cueList or Assert Master Comment Macro referencing your other List in EVERY cue (ie: AM 2 or AL 36 and if you have 10 cue then you need it 10 times)
    - Make sure that your Assert Time for the FX List is set to zero.

    Hope this helps. :)
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Two other things you might have to do, depending on how exactly you want this to work is:

    1 - On the first List, in Options for "Master ll" select Trigger Cuelist Macro, so that if you hit the "Back" key the Assert fires again.

    2 - If you want to use the Color/Intensity List completely separately turn HTP back on for that List only.
  • a_sezaka_sezak Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I just tried this (I've had the same problem for a while) and it works. Thanks Marty.

    At the risk of sounding ignorant, how does this work? How does the assert macro work with the persist on override?

    Thanks
  • Mick MurrayMick Murray Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I too coming originally from an avo background alway had an issiue with a lack of faders / button knobs for direct access particularly with live festivals where you may not know the band's music and have to busk quite a bit. Before i felt a wing was a must have so u could lay out colour and beam options for busking. I just did a show a few days ago on road hog with 10 fader wing. The show had 7 musicians which took up 7 faders straight away as it is trad music and they all play at different times during the music. The other 3 were taken up by washes and further specials stack. So i was left with will i try and program the whole show or can i busk it?????? Based on an idea of someone else in an earlier forum i did this:
    I made pallettes for positions beams col etc. I then made a line of positions for spots in the list window. First cue was a release Q which released all other positions in that line. Next i had a line with colours for the spots.
    Next line was gobo's / beam looks
    Next line was movement fx.
    Next line was intensity fx again with a release as first line in the list.
    I ran the show with a q list window opened in the right screen. I could directly access a colour for the fixtures without selecting them and selecting a palette. Also a new colour just stomped out the previous colour q which was active. I left in default time of 2 secs for colour but also copied this line of colour q's and pasted to a new line, i opened each colour list one by one and set the back and fade times to zero so i could also bump through colours for faster stuff. The remaining faders i had a few pages of different stuff so i had odd even bumps, a few chases. It all worked out really well for the show which i busked in my normal avo style. I was truely impressed with the console and the touch screens are really responsive and accurate unlike their hog2 predecessors.

    N.B. I split the q list window and opened it on second screen and scrolled down a bit to fit in the q's for the washes
  • Mick MurrayMick Murray Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I too coming originally from an avo background alway had an issiue with a lack of faders / button knobs for direct access particularly with live festivals where you may not know the band's music and have to busk quite a bit. Before i felt a wing was a must have so u could lay out colour and beam options for busking. I just did a show a few days ago on road hog with 10 fader wing. The show had 7 musicians which took up 7 faders straight away as it is trad music and they all play at different times during the music. The other 3 were taken up by washes and further specials stack. So i was left with will i try and program the whole show or can i busk it?????? Based on an idea of someone else in an earlier forum i did this:
    I made pallettes for positions beams col etc. I then made a line of positions for spots in the list window. First cue was a release Q which released all other positions in that line. Next i had a line with colours for the spots.
    Next line was gobo's / beam looks
    Next line was movement fx.
    Next line was intensity fx again with a release as first line in the list.
    I ran the show with a q list window opened in the right screen. I could directly access a colour for the fixtures without selecting them and selecting a palette. Also a new colour just stomped out the previous colour q which was active. I left in default time of 2 secs for colour but also copied this line of colour q's and pasted to a new line, i opened each colour list one by one and set the back and fade times to zero so i could also bump through colours for faster stuff. The remaining faders i had a few pages of different stuff so i had odd even bumps, a few chases. It all worked out really well for the show which i busked in my normal avo style. I was truely impressed with the console and the touch screens are really responsive and accurate unlike their hog2 predecessors.

    N.B. I split the q list window and opened it on second screen and scrolled down a bit to fit in the q's for the washes
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited April 2009
    If you don't want to use palettes in live, don't forget that Scenes can be very useful for lot of things that are not using Intensity ;)
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I think Mark is referring to using virtual cuelists by recording single cues to the cuelist window, not so much using palettes. You're right though, as they are single cues, they could be scenes.
    Would there be an advantage to using scenes rather than cuelists?
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    a_sezak;36634 said:
    I just tried this (I've had the same problem for a while) and it works. Thanks Marty.

    At the risk of sounding ignorant, how does this work? How does the assert macro work with the persist on override?

    Thanks

    It is really simple actually....since the two lists are set to the same priority level, one will always "stomp" the other partially unless the underlying list is re-asserted, which is what the macro does for you without having to hit the actual Assert key.

    The Persist on Override option simply keeps the list from being "stomped" and released by running it in the "background"....so the Assert Macro essentially tells the list not to run in the "background" but rather inthe "foreground".

    Make sense?
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Marty, I'm away from my desk for the week, hence my not replying to your suggestion yet, but Alan's success with it gives me hope!
    I will report back on my experience as soon as I have real lights and a board in front of me.
  • MarkScottMarkScott Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Another possible solution might be to use a group master. I know this burns another fader but it wouldn't matter what list stomps which - that opens the door to using more virtual lists for chases, as Mick suggests. Also gives you a cool 'bump out' effect that has worked well for me in the past.

    Mark
  • cormacjackcormacjack Registered User, DL Beta
    edited April 2009
    Hi,
    2 suggestions.
    Make a chase by adding cue's togeter.I know you can get very effective intensity f/x using the effect's engine but sometimes you can make the same chase as quickly by programming an on/off chase.
    Implement HTP effects for intensity in the effects engine.

    Would seem that most of the above post would be solved if you had HTP intensity effects or perhaps i am incorrect.

    Regards C
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    cormacjack;36682 said:


    Implement HTP effects for intensity in the effects engine.

    Would seem that most of the above post would be solved if you had HTP intensity effects or perhaps i am incorrect.

    Regards C
    You mean that High End should implement HTP intensity effects, right?
    That's what I was driving at in my earlier post, that now with Hog III an intensity effects cuelist can no longer be HTP. Intensity should be able to be made HTP regardless of whether it is an effect or not. I believe you are correct that that is the root of all our troubles.

    By the way, were you at Electric Picnic, main stage this summer?
  • cormacjackcormacjack Registered User, DL Beta
    edited April 2009
    Hello Brooke,
    I was at EP last year.

    I'm not sure that it is a problem but the fact that several members replied with different ways to almost acomplish the most basic of console tasks strikes me as somewhat odd.
    I suppose being able to do the same task many different ways has always been a plus when it comes to high End consoles/software.

    I don't want to have to use macro's,change priority,create group masters,run virtual cuelists,create ICBF faders to turn on the intensity of a fixture it shouldn't be that complicated or maybe i'm doing it wrong.
    I can understand the way things are work for some but having very simple htp effects engine might also work for others.
    See a request i made in 2007 for the above.
    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=4363

    regards C
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    I agree completely. I haven't tried Marty's trick yet, hopefully it works. But, yeah, it sure seems like a lot to go through for what is a very basic function of any desk. I hate to sound like a broken record, but again, this was not an issue with Hog II, and I can't find any reason why it would have been un-implemented for Hog III. As I mentioned before, the Hog III OS is by and large a very clean, user friendly system that I greatly enjoy working with, but this issue has dragged me down from the beginning of my experience with it.
    By the way, where are the HES guys in this discussion? Are they aware of the issue? Is it a known problem that can't be fixed within the current software architecture, hence the silence?
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Marty Postma;36620 said:
    Two other things you might have to do, depending on how exactly you want this to work is:

    1 - On the first List, in Options for "Master ll" select Trigger Cuelist Macro, so that if you hit the "Back" key the Assert fires again.

    2 - If you want to use the Color/Intensity List completely separately turn HTP back on for that List only.

    Marty, I can't seem to find an option for "trigger cuelist macro" anywhere, and you are correct that hitting Back does knock out the effect.

    Also, I can set the color list to Use HTP with my pars and still use my par intensity FX, but setting my Mac color list to Use HTP immediately knocks out the Mac intensity FX. Queer.
    Perhaps something in my cuelist is causing this... The options are set identically.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    loebus;36714 said:
    Marty, I can't seem to find an option for "trigger cuelist macro" anywhere, and you are correct that hitting Back does knock out the effect.

    It is under the "Master" section of the Cuelist Options.....look to the left and select "Master"....then look next to the options for the "ll" key and you should see it there.

    As for your other lists with your Macs...make sure that you don't have additional "Strobe" parameter values anywhere in there that might cause a stomp.


    I agree with you and Cormac about the HTP issue for FX....it was soemthing I intially found difficult to work around once I made the jump from H2 to H3. The developers know that there are a lot of things broken with HTP right now (this only being one of them)......I know its' on their list for reworks sometime soon, but maybe one of them can give us a clue as to when?
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    OK so maybe I'm brain damaged, but I swear there is no Trigger Cuelist Macro option for Master II. You're talking about in the drop down menu next to Master II under the cuelist options right?
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Look to the right of the dropdown....you'll see it as a "checked" or "unchecked" option.
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    mmm....nope. The only check/uncheck option is "use default cuelist time."
    Are you on your H3 or HPC? Could this be a H3 only thing?
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited April 2009
    Next to that to the right should be the "Trigger Cuelist Macro" option....unless you've changed that key to do something else from the dropdown....the default for the dropdown is "Halt"....if you change it to "Back" for example you lose this option.
  • loebusloebus Registered User
    edited April 2009
    By gum there it is. I had set "Halt" to "Back."

    I won't even ask why I can't have that option with "Back" as well.
    File it under Not Yet Implemented I suppose.
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