Road hog to Full Boar

nunnynunny Registered User
Is there any upgrade kit available or in the pipeline for road hog users??
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Comments

  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2008
    Mike,

    What kind of upgrade kit are you looking for? The Road Hog is sold as a reduced console and the option for a full console is the Full Boar or a Wholehog 3. I am not sure what kind of upgrade you want, other than to turn your Road Hog into a Full Boar...

    thanks,
  • Mika_AusMika_Aus Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I
    know that I would like to get an upgrade to enable just the networking. Is there any plans to make a middle console? Or is it just going from Roadhog - Full Boar - Hog 3. The networking will allow me to remote focus the rig. I don’t need artnet out, Hog net out (well maybe hog net). I do understand that it is a basic console and there has to be some limitations but, There is quiet a jump in price between the Roadhog and the full boar and is there that much hardware difference? It will give a new lease of life for the basic road hog as it can be a cheap backup console or tracking console.
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I too would like to be able to use the networking capabilities of the FB to enable me to use a tablet/laptop as a remote focussing tool, a colleague has a vista S3 setup and i find it very useful to be able to roam wireless around the room to focus, especially in venues where not all the surfaces im projecting onto are not visible from the desk position!
    Also the option to use a laptop to take a backup show.
    I wouldnt need to use the ArtNet side of the networking.
  • Woodj32177Woodj32177 Registered User
    edited September 2008
    To be honest, I am sure the hardware is similar,
    but the price difference isn't only reflecting the hardware, it is also reflecting the software functionality.
    The road hog was sold as an inexpensive console, but without some of the functions of the more expensive desks.
    That being said, they only way to "Upgrade" would be to sell the road hog and buy a full boar.
    I think the road hog is a very aggressively priced desk, and you get alot for the money, and I understand why they don't include some of the more advanced functions.
    If they did, who would buy the full boar, there has to be a clear distinction between the 2 desks. And then all the people that bought the full boar would be upset that the desk that they paid for is not much better than the desk for substantially less money.
    I do very much understand wanting to get "more for your money", but I also understand the reasoning on keeping those functions out of the road hog.

    Of course, this is just my .02,
    Joshua Wood
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited September 2008
    What about the people who unfortunately bought the road hog a few months before the full boar was released, i would have potentially held out to get the full boar.
    It took me long enough to get the funds released for the road hog so to resell and buy the full boar is a long time coming,

    I just feel you have similar priced desks ie the S3 with the function available and maybe even more, i appreciate there needs to be extra functions on the full boar i.e expansion wings, cd drive ArtNet etc but surely if it was priced accordingly the option of an upgrade on the road hog to network for the above reasons would be appealing to quite a few already road hog owners? its not going to take away the advantage of having the full boar for the ArtNet and all the other advantages?
  • cormacjackcormacjack Registered User, DL Beta
    edited September 2008
    Hi,
    I think being able to make a backup or copy of the current show via either networking or tracking console is a must for any console no matter what the price range.
    I don't see this as an advanced function and i don't think it should be part of any upgrade feature,it should be a standard in any console no matter where it is placed in the hierarchy of the available consoles.

    Best C
  • leebotleebot Registered User
    edited September 2008
    Considering that the Road Hog replaced the Hog 500 / 1000 at very near the same price I completely understand why the FEW features of the Full Boar and the Hog III have not been included. At the time of the Road Hog release I worked for a company that had just purchased another Hog 1000. I would have been ecstatic if they had been able to purchase a Road Hog at current prices. Just the 2 touchscreens alone make it a much better value than the Hog 500/1000. Not to mention the Wholehog OS completly compatible with Hog 3,IPC and Full Boar, saving to a USB and a internal hard drive and 2 more universes. If you really must have the networking features and the expanablity of the Full Boar purchase the Road Hog wings and add an internal widget. That will keep you budget lower and allow you to expand later. Road Hogs have been marketed from the start as a console that is not capeable of expansion. They have even budged a little bit adding support for a 3rd monitor. I cant fault High End in the Road Hog at all. It is an entry level Professional Desk at an incredable price a good place to start for lots of churches, schools, smaller theatres and production companies. I would have gladly excepted a Road Hog for every Hog 2/Hog 500 or 1000 that I have gotten in the past few years.
  • ahelgorahelgor Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I think that everybody understands, and agrees that for the price you pay for a Roadhog it's a killer board for the money you spend. And is probably THE most cost effective console out there!.. I don't think when people say they want an upgrade, that they not would want to pay for it..
    - i think most of the people that says it would be nice with an upgrade, say so becaouse they feel they was kept a little in the dark from Hes with the releases.. -I know that a lot of people got pretty upset with the way the RH and the RHFB was released.. Everything would have been great, and none would have complained if Hes just had released them together..and I personally think it was a big mistake not to..

    -On the other hand, i think that the RH and the FB is two super products that fits nice into two segments. and i think its great to be able to choose.. (unfortunately people couldn't choose in the beginning, and that made some people that bought RH's a bit upset.)
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited September 2008
    I totally agree with the fact the desk is extremely brilliant value for money and is a powerful console, the fact it superceeds the hog 1000 which was a desk created many years ago doesnt mean to say the door for possible upgrades should be slammed shut!!!!!
    In the current market place there are a lot of players bringing different cards to the table, listening to customers, providing for the demand!
    Vista and Martin are true examples of this, they are providing add on seperates if you like to make them very versatile systems.
    I feel if HES were to listen to peoples wants and needs and maybe give the option at a price of upgrading the RH to be able to network it would be a very good decision not to mention a new selling point for one of the best desks on the marketplace!
    Why should the people who put there faith in the RH so quick to then see a few months later the RHFB come out to play have the only option of selling and rebuying in order to take some of the extra functions.
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited September 2008
    For me, the decision to buy 2 RH's instead of RHFB's was an easy one. These were going into permanent locations that would NEVER go above the 4 Universe limit of the RH. No timecode or midi control was needed. We already have a H3 in one location and a Hog3PC/Wysiwyg suite in another location bringing us to 4 locations with Hogs. I knew the features we were leaving behind.

    That being said, the one feature I would have really like to had would be the networking option. Not from the standpoint of being able to add DP's, but from the standpoint of logging in a client on Hog3PC for remote focus and utilizing the network drive save feature. Other than that, I completely accepted what I was losing from the RHFB down to the RH.

    Would this be something a USB to ethernet adaptor would fit into? Possibly. Would there be a way to add network drive/client function and still lockout being able to add DP's? That's for the networking guru's.

    I don't regret my decision for RH's...love the consoles. I couldn't justify the price of the RHFB for my situation. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents (or 1/2 cent in today's economy) as to what I would like as an ADD-ON. Just as the case of the IOGEAR USB to VGA adaptor...this should be an ADD-ON, not an included item. I love the a la carte idea of the Roadhog. This way people could decide what they wanted to add (wings, widgets, networking, external monitor...etc. etc. etc.).

    Thanks!
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited September 2008
    What do HES have to say Brad??
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2008
    This thread is certainly interesting and the inputs of all of you will be noted and considered. However please also realize that the console market is a big one and the opinions in this thread do not necessarily represent all those in the industry. We listen to input from users via many methods.

    We do listen very carefully to all our customers and implement features, enhancements, and upgrades by studying many factors. We appreciate all your comments and encourage you to continue to tell us what you like, what you don't like, and what you want.

    thanks for your understanding,
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited October 2008
    I appreciate that the view of a handful of people isnt enough to influence a decision but i am sure if you were to put this out as a possible option pending demand there would be a very positive response,

    The idea of making the desk possible to remote focus and giving an option of a tracking backup would appeal to many im certain
  • pauldubpauldub Registered User
    edited October 2008
    I agree.. much like the low end MA desks, there is networking which can only be used for remote focus, backup pc, and connection to pc visualisers, but not the ability to connect to other desks or nodes.

    This is defiantly something i would consider as these small functions are so useful. I dont need extra universes but i sure would like remote focus and tracking.
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited October 2008
    doing some digging on the forums and there seems to be already a lot of interest in the option to add networking for remote focus.

    Mike
  • JeffMJeffM Registered User
    edited October 2008
    The Road Hog was a mistake and many who purchased it would rather have the full boar. I told Brad when the console first came out it was rediculous to limit the expandability of the console with no capability to expand universes, monitors, networking, and so on.
    He argued that the basic console was limited on features to keep cost down when in relality the cost in time to backwards engineer a Hog system to do less than it all ready could do was more time consuming than to just leaving as it was originally designed. Then suddenly here comes the full boar and a bunch of pissed off people who had purchased the basic road hog wishing they has the full boar instead.
    Let's look at the facts. Can you expand the full boar to more universes for free? Can you add monitors for free? The answer is no. And why? Because you have to purchase the hardware to expand with, so what is High End giving you in the full bore console that your not getting in the road hog? A disc drive is all I see. You still have to buy monitors,widgets and expander wings to be able to expand. SO what if the console has midi input; time code input; capability of adding monitors, and widgets! Can you expand the console without the above mentioned hardware? NO!
    So tell me again how the road hog is such a good deal? You can have Hog PC with complete expandability for the same money as a road hog console and run Hog 2 or 3. It's an even better value than a Hog 3 console as you don't spend $15k for a controller and have to pony up more for the actual DMX interface via DP2000!
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    i feel i need the option of tracking backup VERY soon!!

    Im running a v important show and already today have had to log off and back on three times!

    The first was when my desk channels wouldnt dim, only gave me 0% or 100% no in between!!

    Then an RGB led channel stuck at 100% both times a re log on solved it.

    Im beginning to lose a little faith in the machine and would feel happier having a plan 2

    The last 2 previous jobs i have had the machine fall over just before doors and the organiser gives me it in the neck!!!!!!

    Pleas please consider this as an important feature!!!!!!!!

    Mike
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited November 2008
    nunny said:
    i feel i need the option of tracking backup VERY soon!!

    Im running a v important show and already today have had to log off and back on three times!

    The first was when my desk channels wouldnt dim, only gave me 0% or 100% no in between!!

    Then an RGB led channel stuck at 100% both times a re log on solved it.

    Im beginning to lose a little faith in the machine and would feel happier having a plan 2

    The last 2 previous jobs i have had the machine fall over just before doors and the organiser gives me it in the neck!!!!!!

    Pleas please consider this as an important feature!!!!!!!!

    Mike,

    Sounds like you are having some unusual problems....I use my H3 nearly everyday with no such issues and the same fixture types. I also use the iPC, RH, & FB consoles quite regularly with no such issues.

    Are you using a lot of custom fixture profiles (built via fixture builder for ex.)?

    What steps are you taking to create these problems? Can you reliably reproduce the issue(s)?

    If you need a backup desk, get a DMX A/B switch along with a seccond desk, and then simply click over if your primary goes down. If you also need it to track you need to use MSC to link the two as well to make the second desk "follow" the first (this is not available on RH as ther is no MIDI)

    2 consoles + MIDI cable + DMX A/B = tracking backup....no problem.

    This has been the way since the very beginning of the H3 system.....network backups are in the works, but I wouldn't expect to see them anytime soon.

    Hope this helps:)
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Sadly the company doesnt have the option of sending x2 desks out on each show,

    Im using no custom fixture types, tha rgb channels are controlling color block DB4's x 40 and the desk channel is controlling a dimming channel on a 48 way art 2000 rack.

    I have just noticed glitches and things hanging quite a lot on the last few releases,

    All problems i encounter seem to be resolved with a reboot and no other changes.

    Its the first time ive seen the desk channels act as a switch almost but not the first time ive had DB4's do strange things,

    I did all the pig release and ensured nothing is parked etc but still it stayed on, power cycled the 30 way PSU and still it stayed on, i cant be running a show thinking " oh it doesnt matter if that one is open white, i have 39 left that are working"

    Please listen to a concerned customer HES
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    PRIME EXAMPLE, MID SHOW, FIXTURES LOCKED OUT!!!!!!!!!!

    NOT GOOD
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited November 2008
    When was the last time you did a full install of the software on the desk? (Not just an upgrade, but a full re-image).

    What XPe version is in the desk?
    What version H3PC?
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    A ful install was done in january, this was due to a crash which wouldnt let me boot up the desk.

    Im feeling very unnervy about using the desk as in the last 4 times ive used it ive had a crash, 1 being last night mid-show, im sure this isnt the advert HES want to be sending out

    As for version i will have to check this week and let you know.

    Regards

    Mike
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited November 2008
    nunny said:
    A ful install was done in january, this was due to a crash which wouldnt let me boot up the desk.

    I would try doing the XPe Image install again with the newest version released in June (Release 1.1.5 for Roadhog) as there have been at least 5 updates since January.

    If this does not solve your problems, then you may have some physical damage to your desk. Either use the diagnostics, call support, or possibly even send it in for a check up.

    Hope this helps:)
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Thinking on i recall the last times i have had problems i have plugged something into the power supply running the desk, i didnt have a ups on either!

    Is this a possibility that there may be a crash due to a spike or something similar??
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited November 2008
    Mike,

    The problems you have been reporting are very odd as Marty has pointed out. The best option right now is for you to contact our support department directly at 800-890-8989 or [email]support@flyingpig.com[/email] then they can troubleshoot these items with you.

    Also you can look on your console in the Logs folder and send me any .dmp files that might be in there. This will help us to determine what is causing the problems you are experiencing. You can send the files to me via http://upload.highend.com

    thanks,
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    im running

    version 2.6.0 (b 2071)

    image 1.1.2

    regards

    Mike
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited November 2008
    Brad
    A copy of the show 2 weeks ago where the parameter wheels locked out has been uploaded

    Regards

    Mike
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited December 2008
    Is there any plans of the networking for remote focus to be implemented??
    Was shown up by Loghtjockey the other day when the DJ was walking around doing a focus on his tablet!
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited January 2009
    nunny said:
    Is there any plans of the networking for remote focus to be implemented??
    Was shown up by Loghtjockey the other day when the DJ was walking around doing a focus on his tablet!

    Not sure what you are talking about......the ability to use a tablet has been around for years already...I use a laptop for remote focus on my H3 almost daily.:D

    The regular RH does not have networking (and probably never will) so this isn't an option for that desk specifically....all the others are capable of this.....keep in mind that the RH is considered by many to be a Hog-500/1000 replacement level console.......and there is no remote focus capability on those desks either.

    .....but to compare to LJ....if you run H3PC with widgets and such, you can network in a tablet if you want to.
  • nunnynunny Registered User
    edited January 2009
    The beginning of the topic was about the option of being able to upgrade as such the RH to network etc, there is many things been said about how HES werent forthcoming in advertising the FB so the likes of myself purchased the RH to only find a few months later the FB is released,
    In the current market a ot of different manufacturers are making all the system versatile so why cant HES impliment at a cost an upgrade kit to enable the networking, not even artnet just remote focus an backup??
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited January 2009
    If HES DO make an upgrade kit, they may only sell 1-200. nobody can say how many they will sell. The only thing I can think of is doin a few surverys on light network and at things like LDI & PLASA. Im sure Brad will have some more input on this as he is the control systems manager.

    Kits for fixtures is different like the mac 2k wash >>> mac 2k wash XB, are different. Consoles are not modular designed fixtures ... suddenly if everyone is opening up thiers to add parts, this could void warrenties and HES could be swamped with "upgraded" consoles that havnt been done properly and are breaking... Then the people who originally suggested it are going to look bad if everyones RHs are misbehaving because of thier idea... Think about it from HES point of view, not just you own..

    My 2p :poke:
  • Woodj32177Woodj32177 Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Nunny,
    My understanding is that for an upgrade to full boar, there most likely would need to be changes to the computer that runs the console.
    There is much more processing power inside the full boar.
    That is not really an end user type of upgrade.
    I would strongly suggest selling your desk and purchasing a used full boar.
    There are many out on the market right now for a very reasonable price.
    That is going to be the best way to "upgrade" your desk.
    I found a few used Road Hogs for 10.5K.
    and I found few Full Boars for 15k.
    Considering the differences in the desks,
    I find the price difference to be very reasonable.
    Good Luck!
    Joshua Wood
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Woodj32177 said:

    That is not really an end user type of upgrade.

    This is my exact point!
  • ahelgorahelgor Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I disagree.. actually it would be very easy.. the network port is already there.. all that would be needed is a new "plate" with usb and ethernet on.. too me it looks like HES thought about a possible upgrade when they decided to have that "plate" with usb on.. The computer is powerfull enough to run the network.. Actually it a is already doing it internally, so it´s not any more resource demanding sending it out the network port..

    -The only problem that i can see, would be how to "unlock" the features in software.. Maybe a dongle of some kind, or a firmware tool update to change the frontpanel firmware in some way.. The reason for not delivering an upgrade sollution is much more a "politcal"/"business" decition!

    -Anders
  • Woodj32177Woodj32177 Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Ok, the network port for console networking is available, I understand that.
    But it is part of the design (and pricing) that networking is not enabled.
    Of course, Artnet will never happen in that desk, as the processor won't support it.

    However, if they allow networking in the road hog, then what is the point of the full boar.
    People who bought the full boar will be pissed off that the 5K cheaper desk will do most of what the more expensive desk does.
    Networking is one of the most key features to the full boar. What is the sense in making a cheaper desk do almost the same thing as a much more expensive desk?
    Say they were to allow networking in the full boar, for a 5K dongle, would that really be all that much better?
    And you absolutely correct, the decision not to include networking has to be a buisness decision.
    And as a consumer, I 100% understand the decision they have made.
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited January 2009
    nunny said:
    ....there is many things been said about how HES werent forthcoming in advertising the FB so the likes of myself purchased the RH to only find a few months later the FB is released.....

    I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

    Please don't take the following personally....but I am going to be blunt about this....

    HES was very forthright in making people aware of what the feature set of the RH was when it was released....there was a very nice product cut sheet available, as well as product brochures detailing what the desk was capable of.

    If you needed remote focus capability....then you bought the wrong desk and that is really your fault....not theirs.....it would fall under "caveat emptor" in my book.

    It was no "big secret" that the Full Boar was being worked on and would be released shortly after the RH.....you can't blame someone else if you didn't do your homework properly.
  • thomstantonthomstanton Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I have enjoyed reading this forum and want to throw in my $.02.

    The market seems to be flooded with used RH's, but I have yet to see a used RHFB. I take this to mean that there are many people that are not very happy with their RH's. I am happy to see the the RH's seem to all be priced about the same (somewhere around $10,000) and they are holding value, but I wonder what will happen once some RHFB's start to hit the used scene.

    Also, I can't imagine a professional lighting console, entry level or not, that does not have remote focus unit capabilities. This is crazy to me. I would imagine that if HES would make one available, there would be one purchased for almost every console.
  • Woodj32177Woodj32177 Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I have seen a few of them around used, usually around 15-16k
    Here is one for sale right now.
    http://www.solarisnetwork.com/item_12689
    Joshua Wood
  • thomstantonthomstanton Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I stand corrected.
  • theDutchGuytheDutchGuy Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Marty,

    I'd have to disagree with you saying:

    " It was no "big secret" that the Full Boar was being worked on and would be released shortly after the RH.....you can't blame someone else if you didn't do your homework properly. "

    It may not have been a "big secret", but I don't think it would have qualified as "public knowledge" either. I consider myself fairly up to date on the basic information that the big boys put out there (HighEnd, Vari*Lite, Martin etc...) but I'm in no-one's inner circle, for sure... in any event, I was quite surprised at the Full Boar's arrival so shortly after the release of the Roadhog. Reactions on the Lightnetwork and from several (potential) end users were no less surprised.

    if the release of the Full Boar was as well-known a fact as you make it out to be, then maybe the original poster should have paid better attention before purchasing the RoadHog, if it doesn't give him all the options he needs. but I don't think it was, so i understand how he might feel cheated. He thought he was getting the maximum amount of hog3 that fit in his price range, but would have held out for the FB had it been known it was coming.
    If the FullBoar was always going to be released so close behind the RoadHog, the least HighEnd and its dealers could have done would have been to give potential buyers a heads-up that a more powerful version of the same desk was follwing soon...

    It has been said before here, but I will say it again:
    both the RH and RHFB have a place in the market, especially as they're the best way to get Hog3 OS into "cheaper" productions. but releasing the FB so close behind the RH without advance warning has deprived some people of a very important choice, one they would have gladly waited for a bit longer.
  • Rob ManderRob Mander Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I agree with the Dutch Guy, as a Road Hog owner if I'd have known about the iminent release of a desk with the extra features that the RHFB has and for such a small amount of difference in price I would have waited. I would like to know where Marty finds out such information as to what products are about to be released or is it just on the Grape-Vine? If it was no "Big Secret" then as a potential customer there is no excuse for me and the other early Road Hog buyers to not be informed.

    What's done is done, from what has been said in this discussion it is clear that HES have no plan to satisfy the needs of early Road Hog owners to the extent that they would like.

    If only HES had dealt with this the same way they did for the DP8000. Whilst the DP8000 was being advertised if you were forced into buying a DP2000 because you couldn't wait you would be offered a trade in deal once it had been released. That shows consideration for their customers.

    I consider this a PR disaster. For some people the purchase of a Road Hog signalled their first ownership of HES equipment and only a few months after purchase they feel cheated. Like it or not that shows a lack of respect for their customers.
  • Mika_AusMika_Aus Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I agree It is a pr disaster. I would have waited for the full boar as well. I have a roadhog and I am now looking at the next console to buy. I am now looking at the new grand ma. The other issue is that there is next to no support in Australia. I thought that there was going to be a high end office opening in Australia. To solve most of everyones issues they should unlock a usb wireless key like the dlink unit so they can remote the console and that is all. From what I have been reading that is the main feture that every one is after. Buy doing it that way you dont have to give artnet out ect ect so it is still limited to 4 universes out. . Give it a fixed ip address and thats it. similar to what they did with the vga usb adapter.
  • thomstantonthomstanton Registered User
    edited January 2009
    So, to sum it up...

    What does the RHFB offer that the RH does not?

    - Not expandable past 4 universes
    - no networking, thus no rfu

    what else?
  • Joe BleasdaleJoe Bleasdale Registered User
    edited January 2009
    networking and expansion are probably the main ones...
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited January 2009
    Roadhog Full Boar over Roadhog:
    Artnet Output Direct from Console - No Artnet output on RH
    2 External Monitors - Only 1 External Monitor with ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT
    Midi In/Out/Through - No MIDI Available
    Hognet Output (for DP8K, DP2K) - No HogNet output on RH
    Console Edition Visualizer Dongle - No Visualizer Dongle on RH
  • thomstantonthomstanton Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Thanks.

    I actually have cash in my pocket and looking to buy a RH this week. We are finally moving up to "Hog Class" from ETC Express/SmartFade boards. I really enjoyed reading this discussion to see what I am actually getting. It was a tough decision between this and a Pearl.
  • Rob ManderRob Mander Registered User
    edited January 2009
    I wish I could have had the same choice!!!
  • thomstantonthomstanton Registered User
    edited January 2009
    Rob Mander said:
    I wish I could have had the same choice!!!
    would you have chosen differently?
  • Rob ManderRob Mander Registered User
    edited January 2009
    As I said before I would have waited until the Road Hog Full Boar was released. I would not under any circumstances have chosen to buy a Pearl.
  • SfeerPeerSfeerPeer Registered User
    edited January 2009
    thomstanton said:
    It was a tough decision between this and a Pearl.
    tough decision? Pearl is no match to :hogsign: , perhaps only for rentalcompagnies...
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