I discussed this a while back with the developers. Given the complexity of this project my vote was to add simple command line style keystroke programmable macros sooner rather than later, revisiting the more sophisticated issues at a later date. Any thoughts? Ross
I would hope that we are now at that "later date" having been touring with the console for 3.5 years now.
Macros are a vital part for speeding up the use of any lighting console, and were a godsend in Hog II with most programmers having a toolkit for setting up desks, building chases, creating audience focuses, and re-setting up preferences for specific tasks.
Anyone involved in festival or one-off event situations would benefit from being able to automate daily repetitive tasks.
If HES are able to spend development time on functions such as mark cues... then surely they can spend time developing functionality that we were promised 4 years ago.
Currently touring a show that uses different local production daily, and is outdoors, I feel very strongly that we need to get these implemented. I could save 1-2 hours daily if I had macros.... (I am also getting more and more wound up by Hog2 converts saying "my Grandma can do this")
I sure share your frustrations. Given a choice however of having something usable now or waiting for an all singing all dancing macro to be coded I know which way my vote goes.
but I did see the first plans for the old lady in 97 so they have had a bit but I dont need another console or wing thing I would like the time being spent in making the one I have do what it said it would when it came out. :no:
Getting anything coded now... even simple keystrokes.. would be a good start...
....I can't see why we have implemented mark cues (the programmer's equivalent of bicycle stabilisers).. and not started work on even basic Macro implementation...
... I wholeheartedly agree on the console / wing thing.. and as an owner of 3 HogIII systems.. I am becoming increasingly concerned that the HES marketing department are devaluing my investments (especially as it still doesn't do everything we were promised it would) with all this full-boar stuff.... unlimited DMX and Artnet?? .. and what happens to all of my DP's when the artnet thing happens.. will they become expensive artnet boxes?
I am in the same boat mate, I to am now thinking that the H3 and DP2000 's are going in the rear view morror of Highend in the thinking that they can build these warthogs out of parts they can get off the shelf there is no more add's out there for a H3 this last relese was mostly warthogs and along with the old ladys I'm getting why do I have am H3 when I can have a warthog so much cheeper that dose the same ?
I have tirelessly lobbied for s/w improvements for the 3 since April 2002 when we were on something like build 27. If the sales of new products can help fund the continuing development I'm all for this.
Realistically there will surely come a sad time for us all when the s/w capabilities outstrip the hardware ones. The level of custom components used has proved to be both its strengths, and also its downfall. There will never be another console made like it.
How sales and marketing deal with this, whenever the time comes, is in my opinion critical, and something to be handled very delicately.
Sadly - and you may call me an old cynic - but I think this time is almost upon us. The software will continue under the new guises, but the days of the Wholehog 3 are probably numbered. The last few months have seen more product releases for the RoadHog range - as has been discussed here, the Full Boar does everything the H3 does (bar a few cosmetic differences) - infact physically it does more (DMX ports out / Artnet etc) So why would a new customer go for the 3?
As Ross pointed out the constraints of the old platform will prove a hurdle to future development. After all, you're always having to make everything backward compatible.
So, you build a new product range - crucially without the Wholehog 3 monicker, because of bad press / reputation in the past ("isn't this a Hog 3? Oh no, no it's a Roadhog - built from scratch"). Add to it steadily and then retire the old product (which you effectively inherited). The Wholehog OS will survive - the hardware will not.
Hi Pryderi, Well when i bought an IPC well after the release of the Hog III i was under the impression that it was also going to be compatible with most future hardware development's which at the moment it isn't unless an artnet DP/widget becomes available in the future. I understand fully that hardware becomes outdated and that it is impossible to stay up to date without some sort of financial outlay on a regular basis so no argument really. With the introduction of the Cheaper than Hog III/IPC Full Boar console and artnet capabilities at some point (maybe this year??) i don't see how the Hog III can be called a flagship console when it does not have all the features of a newer console? I know of several Full Boars that have been purchased recently but not one Hog III....i think thats the way things are going but it is of little interest to those who have invested in Hog III's and DP's or perhaps several in some case's and are not in a position to go for a cheaper Full Boar now. I suppose a little more info on what's going to happen might influence most users choice's about future purchases rather than the almost monthly arrival of new products without any forewarning.
I've spent what i think to be a large amount of money on HE products over the last 4 years so i think a little more advance warning would be cool and really helpful in making informed choices about new products that might be coming my way rather than just letting dealers know as i don't really have a HE dealer in Ireland.
I can't keep up with all the product's being released which is a great situation to be in.
I hadn't considered the IPc, but I guess at a push I'd say that it's in the H3 camp, and something that will gradually be phased out as well. The ability to run H2 is great, but HES no longer support H2 (and no longer build libraries). So, if you discount the H2 side - from a market standpoint, you have a console that runs H3, outputting DMX out of the console or can run DP's. Isn't this in competition with the Fullboar?
You said "I don't see how you can call the Hog III a flagship console when it does not have all the features of a newer console?"
and I wholeheartedly agree. I think my original point was that not only does the 3 not have the features of the newer console, its hardware will cap development at some point. If this weren't the case, I would have expected any new consoles to follow the styling of the 3 - rather than the introduction of a completely new (different design) range. Which to me at least, hints that the future of consoles at HES lie along the RoadHog range, and not the Hog3.
All this is pure conjecture of course. But as a H3 owner, I can understand Dan and nibors' ire.
However, going back to Dan's original post - I think the general issue is we still have an incomplete feature set, after 4 or more years; with regard to Macros, the console doesn't do things that it's predecessor did. Things are a lot better, but there are still issues with DP's, views etc. For example, I don't use external screens, as they slow the system down. There are still wierd UPDATE issues, and problems with calculating states.
Quoting Ross -
"How sales and marketing deal with this, whenever the time comes, is in my opinion critical, and something to be handled very delicately." Exactly. If existing owners feel that they are being neglected - whether this has any basis in fact or not - then their faith gets shaky. And that, in turn dictates any further investment or whether we look at alternatives.
Yes, yes, and yes.....as an H3 owner I feel everyone's pain on all of this. I agree that full macro implementation and some other features are very long overdue, and it does sting a bit to see newer products coming out that essentially compete with the existing ones capabilities. I think some focus needs to be shifted back to the full H3 and quickly to move it to where it really needs to be in relation to the rest of the product line.
I think it would very unwise to release the software that actually enables the ArtNet port on RHFB without first releasing the hardware for H3 to do so as well, and without essentially "dropping" the existing DP-2000s.
It wouldn't surpruse me at all if the iPC goes away in the next few years...I could be wrong of course....but I'm not particualrly sad about it (sorry iPC owners....there's reasons I never bought one.) The only real resaon to have an iPC at this point is to run the H2 software....it simply doesn't make sense to purchase a new one right now when you can get RHFB for roughly the same price.
Having said all of this I am hoping that the very smart folks down in Austin have thought very long and hard about all of these potential issues before they created them....the upgrade/development path has been good so far, so I am willing to give them some leeway and see what the next move will be....I am hoping it puts the H3 back in its' rightful place.
This thread is a very interesting read. First let me address Dan's original topic: keystroke macros
We understand the importance of this feature and the desire of many users to have it implemented. As you all know we have accomplished alot of work in terms of software improvements over the last 4 years, and of course we have more to do as well. Keystroke macros have been discussed and nearly implemented recently. We have a full specification and are looking to implement this feature in a reasonable amount of time. However other feature developments and software enhancements must be considered in our timelines as well. For example, you will soon see another software version with some other long requested features. Keystroke macros are planned, but they do take some time to implement due to constraints in the original software code.
Now as to where this thread has gone: the future of the Wholehog 3 console
As Marty and others have stated we have indeed released new products to complement the entire Wholehog 3 line. This is important from a business side as increased sales of products helps to fund ongoing development of new software. As most of you know, we will this year release the long awaited DP8000 which not only provides incredible DMX processing of 16 universes, but also enables Art-Net output. While this product has taken some time to come to market, it is for good reasons. Not only does the new product provide many enhancements and features, but much of the underlying networking code has been rewritten and greatly improved. This means that we can provide much better communications between hardware products as well as easily add other long awaited features.
We do not wish to abandon the flagship product or our primary users. We feel that all software and hardware improvements are a step forward towards for the Wholehog 3 line of consoles so that users can easily create and playback amazing lighting shows. The Wholehog 3 console still has many improvements over the Road Hog consoles (detailed in another thread), furthermore the Art-Net output of the Road Hog Full Boar will be implemented only when the DP8000 is released.
We listen very carefully to all your requests, suggestions, and comments and always strive to take the product line to new heights. Please feel free to contact me directly at any time to further address any comments or concerns you might have. brad_schiller(at)highend.com
Well that's good to here, but I kind of, still feel that the H3 that I own along with all the other cack still need to not be on the back burner, old lady owners are way to smug about there overly heavy consoles.
