MACROS

dandan Registered User, Hog Beta
Hi,

Are we any closer to getting HogII style MACROS implemented.....

.. as in a sequence of actions that the user can record, edit, and run...


D

Comments

  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    I discussed this a while back with the developers. Given the complexity of this project my vote was to add simple command line style keystroke programmable macros sooner rather than later, revisiting the more sophisticated issues at a later date. Any thoughts?
    Ross
  • dandan Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    I would hope that we are now at that "later date" having been touring with the console for 3.5 years now.

    Macros are a vital part for speeding up the use of any lighting console, and were a godsend in Hog II with most programmers having a toolkit for setting up desks, building chases, creating audience focuses, and re-setting up preferences for specific tasks.

    Anyone involved in festival or one-off event situations would benefit from being able to automate daily repetitive tasks.

    If HES are able to spend development time on functions such as mark cues... then surely they can spend time developing functionality that we were promised 4 years ago.

    Currently touring a show that uses different local production daily, and is outdoors, I feel very strongly that we need to get these implemented.
    I could save 1-2 hours daily if I had macros....
    (I am also getting more and more wound up by Hog2 converts saying "my Grandma can do this")

    D
  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    I sure share your frustrations. Given a choice however of having something usable now or waiting for an all singing all dancing macro to be coded I know which way my vote goes.

    Ross
  • nibornibor Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Tired of being told what old ladys can do

    but I did see the first plans for the old lady in 97 so they have had a bit
    but I dont need another console or wing thing I would like the time being spent in making the one I have do what it said it would when it came out. :no:
  • dandan Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Getting anything coded now... even simple keystrokes.. would be a good start...

    ....I can't see why we have implemented mark cues (the programmer's equivalent of bicycle stabilisers).. and not started work on even basic Macro implementation...

    ... I wholeheartedly agree on the console / wing thing.. and as an owner of 3 HogIII systems.. I am becoming increasingly concerned that the HES marketing department are devaluing my investments (especially as it still doesn't do everything we were promised it would) with all this full-boar stuff.... unlimited DMX and Artnet??
    .. and what happens to all of my DP's when the artnet thing happens.. will they become expensive artnet boxes?

    D
  • nibornibor Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    I am in the same boat mate, I to am now thinking that the H3 and DP2000 's
    are going in the rear view morror of Highend in the thinking that they can build these warthogs out of parts they can get off the shelf there is no more add's out there for a H3 this last relese was mostly warthogs
    and along with the old ladys I'm getting why do I have am H3 when I can have a warthog so much cheeper that dose the same ?
  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    I have tirelessly lobbied for s/w improvements for the 3 since April 2002 when we were on something like build 27. If the sales of new products can help fund the continuing development I'm all for this.

    Realistically there will surely come a sad time for us all when the s/w capabilities outstrip the hardware ones. The level of custom components used has proved to be both its strengths, and also its downfall. There will never be another console made like it.

    How sales and marketing deal with this, whenever the time comes, is in my opinion critical, and something to be handled very delicately.

    Ross
  • PryderiPryderi Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Sadly - and you may call me an old cynic - but I think this time is almost upon us. The software will continue under the new guises, but the days of the Wholehog 3 are probably numbered. The last few months have seen more product releases for the RoadHog range - as has been discussed here, the Full Boar does everything the H3 does (bar a few cosmetic differences) - infact physically it does more (DMX ports out / Artnet etc) So why would a new customer go for the 3?

    As Ross pointed out the constraints of the old platform will prove a hurdle to future development. After all, you're always having to make everything backward compatible.

    So, you build a new product range - crucially without the Wholehog 3 monicker, because of bad press / reputation in the past ("isn't this a Hog 3? Oh no, no it's a Roadhog - built from scratch"). Add to it steadily and then retire the old product (which you effectively inherited). The Wholehog OS will survive - the hardware will not.

    P
  • cormacjackcormacjack Registered User, DL Beta
    edited February 2008
    Hi Pryderi,
    Well when i bought an IPC well after the release of the Hog III i was under the impression that it was also going to be compatible with most future hardware development's which at the moment it isn't unless an artnet DP/widget becomes available in the future.
    I understand fully that hardware becomes outdated and that it is impossible to stay up to date without some sort of financial outlay on a regular basis so no argument really.
    With the introduction of the Cheaper than Hog III/IPC Full Boar console and artnet capabilities at some point (maybe this year??) i don't see how the Hog III can be called a flagship console when it does not have all the features of a newer console?
    I know of several Full Boars that have been purchased recently but not one Hog III....i think thats the way things are going but it is of little interest to those who have invested in Hog III's and DP's or perhaps several in some case's and are not in a position to go for a cheaper Full Boar now.
    I suppose a little more info on what's going to happen might influence most users choice's about future purchases rather than the almost monthly arrival of new products without any forewarning.

    I've spent what i think to be a large amount of money on HE products over the last 4 years so i think a little more advance warning would be cool and really helpful in making informed choices about new products that might be coming my way rather than just letting dealers know as i don't really have a HE dealer in Ireland.

    I can't keep up with all the product's being released which is a great situation to be in.

    Interesting post Kind Regards C
  • PryderiPryderi Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Hi Cormac,

    I hadn't considered the IPc, but I guess at a push I'd say that it's in the H3 camp, and something that will gradually be phased out as well. The ability to run H2 is great, but HES no longer support H2 (and no longer build libraries). So, if you discount the H2 side - from a market standpoint, you have a console that runs H3, outputting DMX out of the console or can run DP's. Isn't this in competition with the Fullboar?

    You said
    "I don't see how you can call the Hog III a flagship console when it does not have all the features of a newer console?"

    and I wholeheartedly agree. I think my original point was that not only does the 3 not have the features of the newer console, its hardware will cap development at some point. If this weren't the case, I would have expected any new consoles to follow the styling of the 3 - rather than the introduction of a completely new (different design) range. Which to me at least, hints that the future of consoles at HES lie along the RoadHog range, and not the Hog3.

    All this is pure conjecture of course. But as a H3 owner, I can understand Dan and nibors' ire.

    However, going back to Dan's original post - I think the general issue is we still have an incomplete feature set, after 4 or more years; with regard to Macros, the console doesn't do things that it's predecessor did. Things are a lot better, but there are still issues with DP's, views etc. For example, I don't use external screens, as they slow the system down. There are still wierd UPDATE issues, and problems with calculating states.

    Quoting Ross -

    "How sales and marketing deal with this, whenever the time comes, is in my opinion critical, and something to be handled very delicately." Exactly. If existing owners feel that they are being neglected - whether this has any basis in fact or not - then their faith gets shaky. And that, in turn dictates any further investment or whether we look at alternatives.

    P
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited February 2008
    Yes, yes, and yes.....as an H3 owner I feel everyone's pain on all of this. I agree that full macro implementation and some other features are very long overdue, and it does sting a bit to see newer products coming out that essentially compete with the existing ones capabilities. I think some focus needs to be shifted back to the full H3 and quickly to move it to where it really needs to be in relation to the rest of the product line.

    I think it would very unwise to release the software that actually enables the ArtNet port on RHFB without first releasing the hardware for H3 to do so as well, and without essentially "dropping" the existing DP-2000s.

    It wouldn't surpruse me at all if the iPC goes away in the next few years...I could be wrong of course....but I'm not particualrly sad about it (sorry iPC owners....there's reasons I never bought one.) The only real resaon to have an iPC at this point is to run the H2 software....it simply doesn't make sense to purchase a new one right now when you can get RHFB for roughly the same price.

    Having said all of this I am hoping that the very smart folks down in Austin have thought very long and hard about all of these potential issues before they created them....the upgrade/development path has been good so far, so I am willing to give them some leeway and see what the next move will be....I am hoping it puts the H3 back in its' rightful place.
  • stephlightstephlight Registered User
    edited February 2008
    I am hoping it puts the H3 back in its' rightful place.

    +1, not better words to resume my opinion.
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited February 2008
    All,

    This thread is a very interesting read. First let me address Dan's original topic: keystroke macros

    We understand the importance of this feature and the desire of many users to have it implemented. As you all know we have accomplished alot of work in terms of software improvements over the last 4 years, and of course we have more to do as well. Keystroke macros have been discussed and nearly implemented recently. We have a full specification and are looking to implement this feature in a reasonable amount of time. However other feature developments and software enhancements must be considered in our timelines as well. For example, you will soon see another software version with some other long requested features. Keystroke macros are planned, but they do take some time to implement due to constraints in the original software code.


    Now as to where this thread has gone: the future of the Wholehog 3 console

    As Marty and others have stated we have indeed released new products to complement the entire Wholehog 3 line. This is important from a business side as increased sales of products helps to fund ongoing development of new software. As most of you know, we will this year release the long awaited DP8000 which not only provides incredible DMX processing of 16 universes, but also enables Art-Net output. While this product has taken some time to come to market, it is for good reasons. Not only does the new product provide many enhancements and features, but much of the underlying networking code has been rewritten and greatly improved. This means that we can provide much better communications between hardware products as well as easily add other long awaited features.

    We do not wish to abandon the flagship product or our primary users. We feel that all software and hardware improvements are a step forward towards for the Wholehog 3 line of consoles so that users can easily create and playback amazing lighting shows. The Wholehog 3 console still has many improvements over the Road Hog consoles (detailed in another thread), furthermore the Art-Net output of the Road Hog Full Boar will be implemented only when the DP8000 is released.

    We listen very carefully to all your requests, suggestions, and comments and always strive to take the product line to new heights. Please feel free to contact me directly at any time to further address any comments or concerns you might have. brad_schiller(at)highend.com
  • nibornibor Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Well that's good to here, but I kind of, still feel that the H3 that I own along with all the other cack still need to not be on the back burner, old lady owners are way to smug about there overly heavy consoles.
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Brad,

    I thought the DP8000 would be 8 DMX ports plus 16 more universes via the Art-Net. Is this not right?
  • edited February 2008
    The DP8000 can calculate 16 universes of DMX. You can have those universes sent via DMX, Art-Net, or both. The name DP8000 comes from the fact that you get 8000 channels (actually 8192, but 8000 is a much prettier number)

    The front panel has connectors for 8 DMX universes. There's an 8-port breakout box called the "DP8000 Expander" if you need all 16 universes available as hard-line DMX.
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited February 2008
    Where does the line start?
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2008
    Back to the original topic. Macros, I would like to add the request of loading Macros onto available View buttons. This would give me quick access to a Macros I need. Can this be done?
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited March 2008
    Scott,

    A docking macro toolbar is certainly part of the concepts we have talked about.
  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2008
    I always liked the Macro Wing available from another company and know a few operators who routinely run their entire shows from these. I'm thinking a playback wing covered in say 80 macro buttons.

    Ross
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2008
    bradpepe wrote:
    Scott,

    A docking macro toolbar is certainly part of the concepts we have talked about.

    That sounds good Brad, but will the toolbar map to the soft keys on the console? This is why the available View buttons would be nice, to use the soft keys.
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited March 2008
    Scott,

    Yes one of the early concepts of the console was that you should be able to dock toolbars against the screens and use the soft-keys associated with them. The origianl plan was to have many different toolbars. We are still exploring this concept and have some exciting plans for the future.
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2008
    Glad to hear it.

    Have you seen my baby in the office? Any news about her?
  • Raggi di LuceRaggi di Luce Registered User
    edited June 2008
    dan wrote:
    Getting anything coded now... even simple keystrokes.. would be a good start...

    ....I can't see why we have implemented mark cues (the programmer's equivalent of bicycle stabilisers).. and not started work on even basic Macro implementation...

    ... I wholeheartedly agree on the console / wing thing.. and as an owner of 3 HogIII systems.. I am becoming increasingly concerned that the HES marketing department are devaluing my investments (especially as it still doesn't do everything we were promised it would) with all this full-boar stuff.... unlimited DMX and Artnet??
    .. and what happens to all of my DP's when the artnet thing happens.. will they become expensive artnet boxes?

    D
    I agree with the concept, but I need Mark. A working mark in zero time as all the other consoles. Why my old spark is working much better than my new Hog III ? why should I spend my money on Hog any more?:sad:
    If you are not able to understand your customer needings PLEASE COPY THE OTHERS
    Sandro
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Hey Sandro.....there is MARK functionality......that is what the column in the cuelist called MARK is for;)
  • Raggi di LuceRaggi di Luce Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Hey Sandro.....there is MARK functionality......that is what the column in the cuelist called MARK is for;)
    Yes I know! the problem about mark was submitted by us (Stefano) more or less two months ago. All the consoles I know execute a mark in 0 s. This allows the fixtures to receive a absolute dmx information and not continuosly changing informations for i.e. 3 m 35 s as timing of the following cue. The other matter is that mi nex cue in 3 m. ..... is to be executed within the next 10 s. If mark feature is not helping me saving time don't loose time wrighting the program for Hog III and sell (or buy) other machines!
    last but not least try to use mark wit a catalist fixture changing color and visual fx wit a 10 s marking time. We think we found a work around solution just in case nobody has our problem:no:, or has much time to lose:aiwebs_007:.
    Sandro
  • Marty PostmaMarty Postma Registered User
    edited June 2008
    Well I guess it is more a matterof personal preference....I never really use automatic MARKs no matter what the desk I always build them myself....that way I have precise control over everything that is MARKing.

    As for zero second MARKS.....most of the time it doesn;t make sense to MARk in zero seconds b/c that draws the audience's eye to the movement....most of the time you want a nice slow smooth MARK.
  • rosswillrosswill Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited June 2008


    To quote from the specifications "The fade and delay times of the parameters within the cue designated as a mark cue shall be used when the fixture parameters move in black" so in other words any fixture can mark in any time, you simply change the cue time for that fixture.
    Personally I use this feature, and with Catalyst actually. I find it works well marking my layers ready for use. I did however request an enhancement which I hope is still under consideration for programming a fixture to ignore a mark cue, even though it’s at zero so that a deliberate live move could be performed as required where the majority of the cues fixtures would still automatically mark.
    I also love the fact that fixtures can mark as available depending on the out time of the previous cue.
    It would have been a shame to not implement this feature as it was one which was such a visionary one in its time in the previous product lines, a feature many other consoles indeed copied.
    It does not in my humble opinion make a case for or against macros however, which we all eagerly await also. I stumbled on a document I wrote in 2002 when we were on version 0.9 requesting enhancements and I’m pleased to say so many of these are in the release software today. I understand everyone’s frustrations with the features missing some of which work so well on other platforms, but personally I’m only interested in features which are 100% solid, and anything which would reduce the stability of the product now can wait until it’s ready.
    Regards Ross
  • bellonsbellons Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited June 2008
    As I already suggested in a previous post, it would be kind of worth adding a marking fade time column, being able to give our marking fixtures the marking time that best fits our needs.
  • ejberendsenejberendsen Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited June 2008
    Is it not possible to have a "select all marked fixtures" fuction? So that you can select the marked fixtures (without looking first witch fixtures are marked) and then changing the time for the selected parameters.

    EJ Berendsen
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited June 2008
    All,

    The suggested improvements for Mark Cues mentioned in this thread are all logged. We agree with them and will implement them soon.
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