A few issues after first week of tech

nickhnickh Registered User
I just finished the first of two weeks of tech on a new musical. This is my first Hog III experience and for the most part I am pretty pleased with the console. The show is large, very ambitious, and my lighting designer works at an insanely fast pace. We are cueing much of the show out of sequence, and we are making drastic changes throughout the cue structure daily. The designer also likes to copy cues and insert them throughout the list. A spread sheet function is something that could be heplful. I use the source button in the view cue window, which is great for looking backwards. My Cuelist is very long. We move too fast for me to take notes or label cues at times. The ALD tracks what he can, but again we are simply moving too fast. With a spreadsheet I could have a view of multiple cues and see what is happening in a specific fixture from cue to cue very quickly.

I performed a console clean install last week with v2.1.0 (1618). I reboot my DP every day before powering up, and I perform Garbage collect & Check Integrity before shut down every night

I understand that using 2 xternal monitors with lots of constantly changing info slows down the desk. However, I absolutely need the externals in order to keep up with my LD. I keep output on one and programmer on the other. My default view is to have my cue list on the first touch screen, and View cue on the second touch screen.

1. Cue Next and Back is too slow in View Cue. There is a lag from when I hit the button to getting the proper reaction. If I need to move quickly ( Back, Back, Back, Back) the lag really slows me down.

2. When I return to my one and only Q list from pallets, Follow Cue has to be reselected, View Cue needs to be reselected, and Follow Current needs to be reselected. Time consuming. Sometimes when View Cue is selected the window appears empty with no data. Occasionally fixtures appear out of order, in the wrong aggregated section, and repeatedly in multiple aggregated sections. In these situations, I close all the views and reopen them. Lately, I have gotten into the habit of closing all the views before I reopen my Cue List and View Cue. This solves the problem some of the time. I have played with the additive setting on views, but I can't solve the issue.

3. When I delete a cue in my live stack (not the cue on stage), more often than not, my programmer window on the external, and my view cue window close. So, I have to go through the open view process again. I delete cues fairly often.

4. There is a lag when I use the hard Update button to update cues. I realise that using the syntax Merge [cue#] causes no lag. However, Update Enter is easier. As I said, my LD moves really fast. We will jump through cues (go to next, go to next, go to next) make an edit, update and continue on. It takes an extra moment for me to check to see what cue we are in, and type it into the command line.

5. When I update cues additional values are placed into the time cell of the Cuelist separated by commas. Often 0 times, though there have been other values that seem arbitrary. I often don't have a chance to clean this up before we goto a cue in the newly incorrect time. This annoys the LD a bit.


All said, I hate to harp on the bad. There are many features I do really like about the console. For instance, I love how the indexed/rotating gobos are set up. And I love how I can reverse and match rpm's. The touch, suck, and copy w/ masking features also work really well. Aspects of the editor I too find very useful.

While I'm here, I've got a question. I would like to add one of my old backed up Cuelists to my current show file. I do not want to merge into my current Cuelist. I looked through the manual, but I could not figure out if this is possible. There are some old cues that I have deleted in my current show that I would like to recover.

Thanks for reading,
nick

Comments

  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited May 2007
    Nick...

    I am glad to hear that overall you enjoyed your experience on the Wholehog 3. In regards to your comments I have answered below:

    I understand that using 2 xternal monitors with lots of constantly changing info slows down the desk. However, I absolutely need the externals in order to keep up with my LD.”
    >> This was true with versions prior to 2.1.0. We reworked the views and this should no longer be a problem as it used to be.

    “1. Cue Next and Back is too slow in View Cue. There is a lag from when I hit the button to getting the proper reaction. If I need to move quickly ( Back, Back, Back, Back) the lag really slows me down.”
    >> Can you please send us your show file at http://upload.highend.com and also let us know which cuelist you were seeing this problem in?

    “2. When I return to my one and only Q list from pallets, Follow Cue has to be reselected, View Cue needs to be reselected, and Follow Current needs to be reselected. Time consuming.”
    >> I wonder if you have these options enabled in your views? The views will remember the options and will be recalled with the view. You should not have to reselect all these options.

    “Occasionally fixtures appear out of order, in the wrong aggregated section, and repeatedly in multiple aggregated sections.”
    >> Again it would be helpful for us to have a look at your show file.

    “When I delete a cue in my live stack (not the cue on stage), more often than not, my programmer window on the external, and my view cue window close.”
    >> Are you viewing the cue that you delete? If so then the view cue window closing is expected as the cue no longer exists, however I do also see the programmer closing and this should not occur. I will log a bug about the programmer closing.

    “There is a lag when I use the hard Update button to update cues”
    >> How long is this lag?

    “When I update cues additional values are placed into the time cell of the Cuelist separated by commas. Often 0 times, though there have been other values that seem arbitrary”
    >> When adding new parameters or effects to a cue, a time will be added for those parameters, this might be what you are seeing. The time values come from those you have assigned as default and should only affect the new parameters not any others that were previously existing.

    “I would like to add one of my old backed up Cuelists to my current show file. I do not want to merge into my current Cuelist. I looked through the manual, but I could not figure out if this is possible. There are some old cues that I have deleted in my current show that I would like to recover.”
    >> The best way to do this would be to open the “old show” and delete the cuelists you do not want. Then move the cuelist that you do want to a location in the cuelist directory that does not exist in the “current” show (cuelist #100 for example). I also usually give it a new name to avoid my own confusion. Then merge your cuelist into your existing show and append to the end of the list. Then you will be able to copy information from this “old” cuelist to the new. I did something like this not too long ago myself.

    Again thank you for using our console and please feel free to contact us further as needed.
  • nickhnickh Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Thanks for getting back to me Brad. To answer your questions;

    “2. When I return to my one and only Q list from pallets, Follow Cue has to be reselected, View Cue needs to be reselected, and Follow Current needs to be reselected. Time consuming.”
    >> I wonder if you have these options enabled in your views? The views will remember the options and will be recalled with the view. You should not have to reselect all these options.

    I had enabled Follow Cue, View Cue, and Follow Current before recording my view. Follow Cue is enabled when I open the View. However, I often have to deselect and then re-enable Follow Cue in order for the function to work prperly. View Cue as well as Follow Current always have to be enabled once I open the view. By enabled, I assume you mean selected.


    There is a lag when I use the hard Update button to update cues”
    >> How long is this lag?

    The lag is about 1.5 seconds


    “When I update cues additional values are placed into the time cell of the Cuelist separated by commas. Often 0 times, though there have been other values that seem arbitrary”
    >> When adding new parameters or effects to a cue, a time will be added for those parameters, this might be what you are seeing. The time values come from those you have assigned as default and should only affect the new parameters not any others that were previously existing.

    My default time is 9.9. As I said, often 0 counts are added. Is there any way to turn off this function. It is useless to me for this particular show and it crates added unnecessay, tedious work.



    “1. Cue Next and Back is too slow in View Cue. There is a lag from when I hit the button to getting the proper reaction. If I need to move quickly ( Back, Back, Back, Back) the lag really slows me down.”

    I tried this first thing today, and I was able to move around fine without any lag. Perhaps the lag only occurs after the desk has been on and heavily programmed for 10 + hours.
    Should I maybe backup and Restart the console durring our dinner break?

    Sometimes when View Cue is selected the window appears empty with no data.

    This is still an issue. Was occuring this morning before I did any programming.


    I'll send my show file as soon as I get a chance.


    Thanks again Brad,
    nick

  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited May 2007
    Nick,

    I have received your show files and we will have a look at them soon.

    thanks,
  • cmuenchowcmuenchow Registered User, Administrator, HES Staff
    edited May 2007
    :D I will hit the highlights of your report:

    -Follow cue and Follow Chosen seem to work fine as long as they are enabled in the recorded view

    -View cue should never be enabled; this is not a state item; it is just a button that can be pressed to open the current cue

    - Needing to deselect and then re-enable Follow Cue in order for the function to work properly is definitely a problem that I can reproduce when switching between views. This looks to be related to known bug #10490. I will investigate to see if this warrants its own bug.

    -The 1.5 second lag when Updating a cue editor is something that we are trying hard to reproduce. I do know that this lag should improve when you close your output window. Let us know if that helps.

    -When updating cues you said additional 0 count values are added to the cues. I am not seeing any unwanted/unprovoked 0 counts being added into the cues after updating. Can you give me an example? Any particular cues?

    -I would imagine that the lag you are seeing when using cue next/back is due to console slow down over time as this doesn't seem to reproduce itself easily.
    I think a backup and Restart durring dinner break is a good idea.


    -Sometimes when View Cue is selected the window appears empty with no data. Can you tell us which cues are doing this to you? Also, be careful to look around in the cue as sometimes the data is offscreen and you don't see it until you scroll around in the cue editor.

    -Chris Muenchow
  • nickhnickh Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Hi Chris,

    So heres the deal,

    I record many blank cues with the Lighting Designer and the conventional programmer. We eventually Goto these blank dummy cues and work within them. When we build dummy cues the designer assigns times which are put on the convention console. Would be nice if I could enter these times into the hog as well. I have approximately 450 cues as of now and there are more to come.

    After editing a dummy cue, I press Update, Enter. This inserts a 0 count instead of my default 9.9 time. We often move on before I can look at the Obsession monitor and edit the time in the Hog. When I Goto a cue further down in the stack and Merge programmer into that previous cue which now has a 0 count, a 9.9 count is added to the 0 separated by a comma.

    In mark cues which I designate as .7 cues, I see more of these issues. In a cue after a mark cue, I have fade time issues when working in the editor of the mark cue. For example, I am in cue 58 and editing cue 51.7 which has a Fade time of 5s and a Wait time of 1s. I select fix 10 and assign Intensity 1 (labeled MARK) to it. I then press Update and close the editor. In my cue list the Fade of cue 51.7 now reads 5s,9.9s,10s. The cue previous to 51.7 has a 10 count, I guess that's where the 10 came from.

    There have been other instances of counts being added to the Fade column. By the time I see these discrepancies, I have forgotten the exact keystrokes that I performed. I will continue to watch for this behavior and take notes on what led up to the outcome when I can.


    -Sometimes when View Cue is selected the window appears empty with no data. Can you tell us which cues are doing this to you? Also, be careful to look around in the cue as sometimes the data is offscreen and you don't see it until you scroll around in the cue editor.

    The data is definitely not off the screen. I will try to document exactly what leads up to this situation next time it happens.


    Another occurrence I have experienced has to do with Pan / Tilt. Sometimes after selecting a fixture and giving the Pan or Tilt encoder the lightest possible touch, the chosen fixture will fly away. Sometimes it will even quickly move in the wrong direction. This is my first time programming for the designer I am working with. I think he is incredibly talented. He knows exactly what he wants more often than not. So, he will talk me through in detail exactly where to position a light. Not how I'm used to working, but the end product is really quite stunning. Anyway, if a light flys away as he is trying to position it, his design process becomes hindered.

    I will send you my latest show file today.

    Thanks for your help,
    nick
  • bradpepebradpepe Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited May 2007
    Nick,

    Thank you for all the information. These details really help us to reproduce and ultimately fix problems.

    Regarding the pan/tilt problem, this is a known bug #10590 "Encoder values jump to max value". It is also discussed here:
    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=3686
    and
    http://forums.highend.com/showthread.php?t=3904

    We are working on this now and hope to have a fix in the near future.
  • cmuenchowcmuenchow Registered User, Administrator, HES Staff
    edited May 2007
    Hey Nick,

    Blank cues (cues with no parameter data) cannot contain timing data. There must be something in that cue other than just tracking values. If you want to give these blank cues timing I recommend patching a spare desk channel and using that desk channel to record your blank cues. Your blanks won't technically be blanks anymore except for the fact that they will not effect anything on stage.

    Next you mentioned an issue with cue 51.7 updating with an extra 10s fade time that your weren't expecting. This is occuring because the intensity palette that you are applying does not contain timing data. Therefore when you open the cue and apply intensity palette 1 you are telling the cue I want you to use a particular intensity value for fixture 10 but you are not explicitly saying what the timing should be, so the fixture uses whatever timing is tracked from the previous cue. To get around this you should open intensity palette 1 and mask in timing (click on the T and hit update). This will ensure that the timing used is 9.9s.

    Lastly, I was able to reproduce your cue editor showing up blank. It looks like this has to do with compact mode. Every other time that I open a cue editor it comes up blank. If I switch out of compact mode this does not occur. After some digging I found this is logged as bug #7310.

    Cheers
    -Chris Muenchow
  • nickhnickh Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Hey Chris,

    Recording a spare desk channel into my Blank Cues sounds like a good work around. I'll give that a try.

    As for the fade time issue related to my MARK intensity pallet, I understand what you are suggesting. However, I do not want to add any additional times, not even my default 9.9s. I would love to not have to go back to my list to remove fade times accumulated from new updates. Is there any way that the parameter can grab the already existing time of the cue it is being updated into?



    Thanks again for your help,
    nick
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