Copying Scenes to Cue Lists

W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
Hi Folks:

I suspect this is a newbish question, but im not sure how to go about this. I have been through the manual section about scenes and cuelists and I have created a couple of scenes in my scene directory. I would like to be able to take my scenes and copy them - in a specific order to a cue list so that i can assemble a cuelist to run a service.

Im not sure if im attempting to do this the right way, or if there is a better approach. I am WIDE open to any / all suggestions of the right way to do this.

What I want to achieve is this: I would like to assemble a library of pre-defined "Looks" (some people call them cues, or scenes or presets) so that I can (ideally) either call them directly during a service, or assemble them into a cuelist to attach to a master so that the service can be run by hitting the GO key at the appropriate time (with the use of masters possibly for over-rides).

I initially thought that constructing my scenes (looks / whatever) in the scene directory was the way to go and then either playing them directly from there or copying them into a cue list, but its not working (they dont seem to arrive in the cue list) so im not sure where to go from here

I can gladly supply more info, if I've not been clear here

Thanks to all

TIM

Comments

  • jabadgerjabadger Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Make a cuelist of empty cues that trigger the scenes via Comment Macros.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Jason:

    Ok - -thanks -- thats a lil further along in the manual than ive gotten -- but i'll tear into it first thing in the morning

    TIM
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited April 2007
    -What I would do is type Scene, #, Copy, Enter, which would put the first scene in the programmer.
    -Then Record, Choose (Available Master) to create Cue 1.
    -Then before you clear the programmer, put all those fixtures to 0%, and Record Choose (Same Master) again to create Cue 2.
    -Now hit Clear, and put the second Scene in the programmer the same way.
    -Now Merge that Scene that is in your programmer into Cue 2.

    The reason for putting the first look to 0% and creating Cue 2 is to assure that no unwanted fixtures will track into Cue 2's look, which is actually the second scene you merge into Cue 2.
    If you have movers that are changing Beam, Color, or Position from Cue 1 to Cue 2, you might have to add a Mark cue before Cue 2.
    I hope I'm explaining this right....someone else chime in.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    could i not also copy them with state and essentially make them all blocking cues?

    TIM
  • barnes2000barnes2000 Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited April 2007
    Yes. You can also change the cue options to Cue Only. This would turn off the tracking mode of the cue list.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Excellent - i just finished getting the rental stuff struck from our show this weekend, and my next task is to start fiddling wih the software some more - our hardware should be here today, tomorrow or wednesday (HOPEFULLY) so then I'll be able to put it all to use!

    I have a show wednesday night, one thursday night, one on friday afternoon and the full slate of services on sunday -- so I get the feeling im gonna be busy boy the next couple days

    TIM
  • eboxereboxer Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I usually load the scene, active enter suck record cue # state enter
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited April 2007
    I have 3 comments about your suggestion, Eric.

    1) "Active Enter" will only grab fixtures with an intensity above 0%, so it may not grab everything that is programmed in the scene. This may be what you want, but it may not.

    2) Suck will grab all parameters being affected by *any* playback, not just the selected scene or list. If there are multiple playbacks running, the results may be different than just copying the scenes into the programmer.

    3) The State option on the record toolbar hasn't been implemented yet. State works when copying and extracting, but it doesn't change the way we record.

    This is definitely a useful suggestion that can come in very handy, I just want to make sure that Tim understands the differences between the options he's been offered.

    Thanks.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    To be honest im not totally sure which will work best at this point - the intention is to maintain a set of static looks (right now its all desk chanels, but the theory extends to moving lights as well) so that I (or my substitute if i get hit by a bus) can easilly assemble a service from preset building blocks. for example -- currently, on the GSX, we have predefined looks for

    - Prelude
    - Upbeat song with choir
    - slower song
    - preaching
    - choir special
    - Solo Center stage

    (not an exhaustive list)

    then i either call them directly (on the gsx they are recorded as cues starting at 100) via commands like:

    CUE 7 TIME 15 GO

    etc

    or by copying them into the upper parts of the cue list and then hitting GO at the appropriate moments.

    I realize moving to a different lighting desk (not to mention design and operation paradigm) there are going to be some shifts in how I do things, and I'm trying to get a handle on how the BEST way to do it is

    I've been doing lighting for a number of years, but its all been desk channels and the GSX or lesser desks, so a lot of this is new to me. I managed to survive our Easter show using a Leprechaun LX48 (only because our Hog3PC isn't here yet). Using a moving light console, and one which supports tracking is ENTRIELY new to me -- I've been playing with the software a lot since Christmas, (as I researched what was the best route to take) so some things are easy, and others are not still.

    Thanks for the input, and I am definatly open to more if its available (not just on this topic, but any and everything)

    TIM
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited April 2007
    Tim,

    The complexity that is added with moving lights (in addition to just additional parameters) is that there may be transitions between looks that don't look good on-stage because of live moves or changes in things like gobos.

    You will need to decide what you're willing to see change live on stage. Without having much knowledge of your particular situation, my general suggestion is that you can rarely make the transition of a slotted gobo or colour look good, but that you can often finesse other parameters, even pan and tilt. I'm also making the assumption here that you may want to jump from any cue to any other cue in your list.

    To set this up, each "look" that you have will basically be composed of 3 cues. The primary cue will be the actual look itself, this will be followed by a cue that fades out the fixtures that can't do live transitions nicely so that they can prepare for the next look. Each primary look cue will be preceded by a "mark" cue that prepares the fixtures that have been faded out for what they will be doing during the primary look.

    Different people have different ways of doing this based on personal preference as programmers and operators, but that is generally the basic structure. I hope this gives you an idea to start from. Please feel free to keep asking questions and we'd all be glad to help out.

    Thanks.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Tom - Sounds great -- Right now -- all i have is desk channels, (which is probably good to learn on) we will be adding our moving lights over the next couple months.

    The system of cues that you have suggested makes a great deal of sense to me, and i perceive that in setting up the service - -im going to have some work to do getting the fade and mark cues set up, but that will be half the fun of it i think :)

    I am assuming that the "fade" and "mark" can safely be linked to the previous primary cue and given a delay time etc, so that GO would only be hit when im ready for the primary cue.

    Im sitting here with my laptop fooling with stuff and have gotten most of the bugs worked out already, our hardware is scheduled to arrive tomorrow by 4:30 (FEDEX is usually pretty early here) so hopefully by this time tomorrow night, i'll be shining lights on the stage (which is good because we have a service on wednesday night and I DONT want to run that on the GSX if I can avoid it!

    The hog 3 PC software is making a lot of logical sense to me and im sure it will be much better when i get the wings and widget and can actually see the effects of my changes live and onstage -

    I am sure one of the biggest things that will bite me is getting used to tracking but i understand the concept and it makes sense, so its not too big of a deal, just will have some funny looking cues during programming time for a while im sure.

    My next big production show will probably be Christmas time, although we are doing a benifit concert in may that im trying to get some moving lights donated (rental) for so i'll have some time to have fun with them as well as learn more.

    I'm sure i will have questions as we go along, and I'm thankful you folks are willing to suffer a newbie :)

    Hopefully it wont be to long till I'm able to answer questions for others

    TIM
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited April 2007
    Tim,

    It definitely sounds like you're getting the idea. You could certainly make your mark cues autofollow your fade out cues, but you probably don't want to make your fade out cues autofollow your primary look cues. If you do, your primary look cue will run and fade up your gobo fixtures and as soon as it completes, they will fade back out. You'll need to run the fade out cue manually when that "scene" is done to prepare for the next scene.

    I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying Hog 3PC. Keep in mind that it can hook directly via Ethernet to the most common visualizer applications (ESP Vision, WYSIWYG, Capture, and MSD), so you could work offline and actually see what you're doing.

    All of us were newbies once, too. Please continue to ask any questions that come to mind and don't hesitate to make suggestions. People coming from different consoles and experiences often have a much better perspective about what's not intuitive in the software than those of us who work on it every day of our lives. They also tend to have some good ideas based on their experiences with other consoles. The worst that could happen is that you'd learn that you're doing something the hard way and we'd give you some better options.

    Thanks.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Tom -- sounds excellent - I'll definatly continue to ask questions. In my real job (teacher and IT manager for the school my church runs), I deal with open source software a lot, and so I'm used to the whole community support idea (I realize that HOG3PC is not opensource) and it looks like you folks have done a good job replicating that here -

    Just out of curiousity, which of the visualizer programs do u recomend (if you are allowed to do that) it would be cool to have it in place as we plan our new rig so we can visualize how things will look etc. I have less than no knowlege of that aspect of lighting design etc.

    thanks

    TIM
  • eboxereboxer Registered User
    edited April 2007
    A visualizer, IMO, is more of a personal thing. It all depends on what your needs are from it, and how much you are willing to spend, and in some cases what is available around your area (if you are just looking for visualization studio*).

    Personally I like ESP. The graphics and the reality of it just aren't really matched with any of the other pre-viz programs that i've used (and its the most accessible around me). WYSIWYG is nice because you draw your plot and viz all in one program (depending on what flavor you get). I've only used MSD because i was using a MAXXYZ which has it built in, so for that it made the most sense. I've played with capture for about 5 minutes, so I dont really know much about it.

    The pre-viz studio that I'm talking about is usually a place (maybe owned by your local rental house) where you can rent time and a board to program your show. For what you are doing, this may actually end up to be the best bet for you cost wise.
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited April 2007
    I consider us to be very lucky to have users who are brilliant and generous with their skills. I get an email every time anyone posts anything on the forums and I tend to spend too much time here, yet there are a select few people who consistently respond to posts before I do and give an answer at least as good as I do.

    We try very hard to foster this kind of environment. We don't do much moderating of what gets said or steering of discussions to HES-friendly topics. We try to be very honest about our strengths and weaknesses and we take user requests and opinions very seriously when we decide where to focus our development efforts.

    Now, on the visualizer topic, there are great options and the choice will depend on your personal needs. Assuming money is no object, I'd probably go with either ESP Vision or WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG has the advantage or being able to draft and run some nice reports, but ESP Vision has absolutely the highest quality visualization on the market, in my not-so-humble opinion. WYSIWYG will work for doing accurate positions and basic colors and gobos, while I feel that ESP allows me to much more accurately pre-cue complete scenes, even with intensities.

    I'd suggest taking a look at each of the visualizer manufacturer's websites, taking a look at what support and forums they offer, and looking for the opinions of others in places like the LightNetwork (http://www.lightnetwork.com).

    I hope this helps.
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Tom:

    Cool i'll have a look into the different visualizers and start begging our worship leader to buy me one! :)

    Has any one suggested the idea of an IRC Chatroom (Prehaps on freenode or one of the other multitude chat servers?

    I reside in several on a regular basis and find them to be quite helpful as well.
  • RobfulRobful Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Hi Tim,

    It's been interesting reading your posts (and the replies) as i went through a similar change last autumn. I mostly do amateur stuff in Edinburgh, Scotland, and the theatre that we do a lot of the shows in has a Strand LBX (controlling 80 circuits of dimming). Occasionally, if we needed moving light control, or used a different venue, this usually entailed renting something by Zero 88.

    I quite like the strand, but loved the idea of having my own desk, which I could pre-program at home and get to know inside out. So I plumped for a Hog PC setup, with widget and playback wing run off my laptop and I’m delighted with it. It’s great not having my ideas constrained by the desk’s (as in the Strand/Zero88) abilities! I grasped the concept of tracking quite quickly, but it took a while to keep remembering to turn lights off in subsequent cues!

    It’s useful seeing the replies to this thread as I will probably have to do some busking in a show at some point in the future. I find programming on the Hog slower, but that’s because I like to name my cues and add some descriptions (whcih the Strand can't do). It’s so cool being able to have that sort of info on the screen, to reassure me what the next cue actually does!

    And congratulations to HES and the forum members for making this such a great forum. It is the most constructive and helpful forum I’ve come across on the net, and doesn’t suffer from the personal slagging matches that a lot of others out there do.

    For a visualiser, I use Capture. It allows you to build up the venue/rig, gives you real-time visualisation and does reports. I haven’t used WYSIWYG or Vision and Capture may not have all the bells and whistles that these have, but it’s a good all rounder and great value – ideal if your budget (like mine) is tight, plus there’s no ongoing subscription. It’s also very easy to use and quick to learn, and the support is good.

    Good luck with the transition to the hog.

    Rob
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Rob:

    I can tell you this, I'm quite excited about beginning the transition -- the GSX is the little brother of your LBX, and while a capeable board for desk channels only, thats all it can do -- we are planning to expand our rig to include lots of RGB LED fixtures (Color Blasts), A gaggle of intimidators (Moving mirror fixtures) and a few Studio Spots, with the intention to rent in additional as needed. The HOG3PC was merely the first step in what is going to be a large AV rebuild for our worship center.

    I'm going to have a look at capture as soon as i can google up its address

    Thanks for the tip

    TIM
  • W8TAHW8TAH Registered User
    edited April 2007
    HI FOLKS!

    We got our hardware and right now the only problem is that the widget is a HOG 2 Widget not a Hog 3 -- so until we can get the upgrade, I am busily learning the hog 2 software - most of what i have learned up to now applies so its not to big of a deal

    TIM
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