question about Whole Hog III

amir87amir87 Registered User
edited September 2006 in Wholehog 3 General Discussion
How can i do a "MARK CUE" in the WH III like in the Hog 250/500/1000 ???

Comments

  • edited May 2005
    Amir87,
    At this time Mark Cues are not supported in the Hog 3. We are working on having them added as a feature soon.

    Joe
    High End Systems Support
    joe_haller@highend.com
  • developerdeveloper Registered User
    edited May 2005
    arent mark cues quite important when programming catalyst?
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited March 2006
    Richard,

    Mark cues are almost always important when working with any light that has more than one parameter. You often need to preset your non-intensity parameters before you bring up the intensity of the light.

    All that is being discussed here is an automatic mark cue feature.

    Many programmers (myself included) choose to write their own mark cues. This allows me to control what is marking, when it's marking, and the time it's marking in. It also allows me to use a consistent numbering scheme so that all of my mark cues are easily identifyable in the cuelist window.

    Personally, I always make Intensity Palette 1 a palette with every fixture in my show at 0% intensity and I call this palette MARK. That way, I can put lights in this palette in my mark cues and when I'm looking through my output window trying to grab some available lights to do something, I don't cause myself hassles by grabbing lights that are marking to do something in an upcoming cue.

    As Brad mentioned, we have discussed the functionality of the automatic mark cue and it is on the list of features to be added.
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited March 2006
    I use often Live [enter] PCB Suck, Go Back, Live [enter] Knockout technique. After that you can make a new (mark) cue or update fixtures to cue.

    But, of course automatic MARK cues or something similar is nicer... especially if they update automatically.
  • davidfitwedavidfitwe Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited August 2006
    I am really curious how far down the line the mark cue fuction is, and when it is going to be added. If I remember right thier was a post on the LN that said HES was working on it and it was going to be much more powerfull. Does anyone know the status of this feature for the III.
  • amir877amir877 Registered User
    edited August 2006
    Ye, i agrie abuot the Mark Q but...Hah this thread start by me a year ago with my first user name ! where did you find this ?!?! :18: this was my first post here!

    Wow im geting old...
  • davidfitwedavidfitwe Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited August 2006
    I just did a search for mark cue.

    David Wetmore
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited August 2006
    David & Amir,

    Mark cues are a big priority to us because they are Hog 2 functionality that is missing from Hog 3. Currently, we're working on some important improvements to performance and stability, in addition to connectivity between the console and PC products.

    Our new mark cue functionality is detailed in feature requests 1209 and 6001. I can't give you any of the good details yet, but I can tell you that what we're planning will be a very powerful tool. It is also near the top of our list of planned enhancements. I can't tell you when it will be completed, but rest assured we haven't forgotten about it.

    Thanks.
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited August 2006
    Does anyone feel, it would be nice to be able to select fixtures in a cue and set them to do nothing until dimmer is zero?

    Somekind of look after tool... outgoing fixtures are delayed automatically.
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited August 2006
    This could be something like this...

    You open a cue and in one or two tabs (like values, fade, fade etc.) you have list of incoming and outcoing fixtures and you just select them and console takes care of the rest, preparing incoming fixtures and delaying outgoing. The list of course updates if you add fixtures to previous or following cue. There could be auto option or manual where you can select fixtures you want... This could be of course more advanced if you could select individual parameters or parameters groups, though it could be a bit tricky to make it simple and fast to use...

    Comments?
  • chuckdillinghamchuckdillingham Registered User
    edited September 2006
    As a long time Hog III user, I personally have gotten quite used to not having the "mark cue" function and actually it really doesn't even bother me anymore. You sort of get used to having to do it yourself and really, anymore the "mark cue" feels like a crutch. I find myself not even using it on the shows I do on a hog II now!
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited September 2006
    I can live without them also...but if there would be somekind of solution of this? I would like it to work for incoming and outgoing, like in my previous post. Also I prefer a more "transparent" solutions like GMAs MIB or Compus Look ahead.
  • amir877amir877 Registered User
    edited September 2006
    just see this now but i really like Sami idea, in fact i think this is a great idea.

    Hey Sami, i think we should called it a "Blackout Cue", what do you think about insart a Blackout Cue just like you insert a mark cue in Hog II (Pig+Blackout) ?

    Amir
    Danix.co.il
    Israel
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited September 2006
    Could be something like that... any solution would be nice :)
    It is sometimes annoying to delay parameters for outgoing fixtures until intensity is down.
    But like I said it would be nicer to have no cues at all...just open your cue and incoming and outgoing fixtures are sorted in their own tabs where you can select if you want to mark/preposition incoming fixtures and delay outgoing fixtures
  • SourceChildSourceChild Registered User
    edited September 2006
    developer wrote:
    arent mark cues quite important when programming catalyst?
    About 90% of my Catalyst programming is a multi part ordeal. (Yay for 5 layers on two outputs with Cat v 4.0).
    My cuelist looks a little like this

    _____ Layer 1 | Layer 2 | Layer 3 | Layer 4 | Layer 5
    Cue 1 Load ____ Load ____ Load ____ Load ____ Load

    Cue 2 Sync

    Cue 3 Pl/F-In _ Sync

    Cue 4 Fade Out. Pl/F-In _ Sync

    Cue 5 Stop ____ Fade Out. Pl/F-In _ Sync

    Cue 6 Load ____ Stop ____ Fade Out. Pl/F-In _ Sync

    Cue 7 Sync ____ Load ____ Stop ____ Fade Out. Pl/F-In
    1. Load
    2. Sync
    3. Play-Loop/Fade-up
    4. Fade-down
    5. Stop
    6. Load
    As you can see, this is feaking nuts!!!
    But it is what I have to do to have flawlessly running content running. Actually I do it all in a few cues with delay times but OMG is that a brain killer when you're trying to remember what is what.
    I don't just need Mark Cues, I need "Load" cues too.

    With about 30 movers, I could program a big show from scratch in about 4 hours. With Catalyst now, I'm lucky if I can do 40 or 50 cues in 4 hours.
    Anything! That will help this I would love!

    How about making that "MARK CUE" function in Hog 3 diverse so I can use it to create syncs.
    Why you're at it, how about a feature that inserts a proportionate follow time (I hate having to open the editor to find my delay and fade times and then adding them up to create a follow time.
    Oh! and how about Macro follow times? How about a fade time on the FADE MASTER macro?
  • SourceChildSourceChild Registered User
    edited September 2006
    teerickson wrote:
    Many programmers (myself included) choose to write their own mark cues. This allows me to control what is marking, when it's marking, and the time it's marking in. It also allows me to use a consistent numbering scheme so that all of my mark cues are easily identifyable in the cuelist window.

    Personally, I always make Intensity Palette 1 a palette with every fixture in my show at 0% intensity and I call this palette MARK.

    This I have even taken a few steps further where I record all my fixtures on my MARK palettes "Per Fixture." Here is why.
    If I am programming a look, I can set specific intensities for specific fixtures and merge into this palette. This allows me to see those fixtures if I need to make changes. Later, I can change the palette back to 0% to run the show.
    To add onto this, an additional feature is to create intensity palettes in stages. What I do is create a "Setup" palette where intensity is at zero, a "Run" palette where I'm at Full, and an "Out" pallet where I go back to zero. Always make sure though that when you change these palettes for viewing that they do not update as "allow ref" or you loose the whole naming scheme in your editors.
    This may not mean much on a small rig but when you've got 5 Catalysts, 100 movers, and 300 conventionals then all of a sudden you really wish you had better naming in your palettes. (Actually, you'd have a second or third operator with their own board :hitwithrock: ).
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2006
    Todd,

    It sounds like you may be making things more difficult than they need to be when working with the Catalyst, but I'm not sure I understand what you're doing.

    My main question is what are your "sync" cues doing?

    I think the best way for you to simplify your cueing would be to use the intensity trigger play modes. This will allow you to not have to hard code a play mode value into your fade up cues and allow you to remove your stop cues completely. The intensity trigger play modes set the appropriate play mode, but won't actually play a media file until the intensity of the layer is above 0%.

    Many people here know that my background is primarily as a programmer and Wholehog 3 owner. I can't remember the last show I programmed where I didn't have multiple media servers. I had the opportunity recently to program a show with 2 catalyst servers using a total of 24 layers across 4 outputs. This isn't what I consider to even be approaching a large count these days, but my challenge was that I was using pixel mapping to feed 18 different video surfaces. There were times when I had 23 of my 24 layers live on stage at one time.

    I had two things helping me in this situation. The first is that the Wholehog 3 uses an abstract fixture model that allows me to treat all fixtures similarly, whether they are a desk channel, a moving light, or a media server. The second is that Catalyst is a great application with a huge list of useful features (like the intensity triggering I mentioned above) and that it has an extremely well laid out DMX protocol. In almost all situations, I was able to limit myself to 3 basic cues for each given sequence. The first would mark every parameter I needed to use. The second would fade up the intensity (and trigger playback). The third would fade out the intensity (and stop playback when intensity reaches 0%).
  • SourceChildSourceChild Registered User
    edited September 2006
    In all reality, I do not actually have so many cues. I am constantly using tons of trick but for the sake of posting I simplify. I guess teaching tons of volunteers who have no programming experience, I have a tendency to over simplify to express the significance of thought process.

    My issue is actually more complex. Almost all of my content is custom and I do TONS of trans white, trans black, or pngs with alpha so I can overlay. Whatever the case, when I'm in a corporate environment or live on TV, I will have moving content up almost 100% of the time. If I'm running a song, I will usually have an open, verse 1, pre-chorus, chorus, verse 2, bridge, solo, and close look. This doesn't include all the text and logo overlays. Something similar is true when I'm supporting a keynote presentation or speech where I'll cross into several moving files over the course of a few moments.

    For the sake of the last post, I was simply concerned with tools to expedite and automate the process.

    By "SYNC" I mean Layer sync. This means I am syncing a layer to another layer or to timecode from a deck or something. Sync is quirky how it works so I have to load a file with InFrame and then sync the slaves to the master layer. This causes a jump when I do it while the file is playing So if I sync to a master that is paused on InFrame, I can eliminate jumps from the seek time issues present with any media server. This keeps my live content from showing jerks. This is also a step I have to do before I start play or else the file I am about to start will flash on the screen.

    You are absolutely right about go above zero. It is a great feature and the one I load into the master before I sync. Of course I also use content with Audio files too (wish I didn't have to but...) This feature is a bit different and very delicate to use since audio received more priority for processing than video.

    As far as stop cues, when I stop a file before loading the next one, I have noticed less skipping on the live files that are running. Not to mention that freezing on a video is common for me.

    Most of these issues I have wouldn't be a problem but I am doing a significant amount of edge blending on very smooth surfaces and the slighted jitter will divulge a seam.

    I apreciate the input and I would love to discuss other great tricks but you'll notice that when I post I tend to do so in a simplified manner because it's what I'm used to when I'm relating to beginners.
  • teericksonteerickson Registered User, HES Alumni
    edited September 2006
    Todd,

    I haven't had problems with doing my marking and setting my sync-to IDs in the same mark cue. This has never caused me any issues with jittering or layers not syncing properly. If you're having issues with this I would definitely suggest posting a bug report in the appropriate Catalyst forum here. Then we can have a tester try to reproduce the problem and let our developer know about it.

    Using files with Audio requires some additional considerations, but generally not with regard to marking. When I need to work with audio using the Catalyst I tend to be much more careful about how many active layers I have and the bitrate of my movies, but I tend to handle marking in the same way. One mark cue using one of the intensity trigger modes and one fade up cue that starts everything running.

    It may be reasonable that you see less skipping on active layers when you stop a layer before changing media files, but this also becomes a non-issue when using intensity trigger play modes, since your movie stops playing as soon as the intensity of the layer reaches 0%.

    I wouldn't be too concerned with simplifying your responses for people here. Many of the people who are actively posting in the forums are accomplished programmers and the new folks tend to catch on fairly quickly. In this case, I think that while your multiple setup cues may do a good job of illustrating what needs to be considered when writing mark cues for media servers, your implementation seems to be more complicated than necessary.
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