MIDI control...How do I get started

BBCLDBBCLD Registered User, Hog Beta
I am trying to get started using MIDI/MSC. I have read, researched, and tried nearly everything I have found on the forums and I am getting absolutely nowhere.

1. How do I get started?
2. I want to sync with music more than just using the "Learn Timing" feature. We use a lot of click tracks and I would like to get the clicks/loops to trigger a cuelist and keep the cues in sync throughout. How would I get that programmed?
3. I have tried to use MIDI control through Pro Tools, no luck. We use Logic for clicks/loops and would just like the computer on stage to trigger the console with the clicks/loops.
4. I just don't get it and would like to. Christmas show programming is coming up in a few months and would like to make it all work seemlessly.
5. Is it possible for MIDI to start whatever cue at the appropriate time should they start somewhere in the middle of a song?

Whatever help you may help me understand a little more. I have read the console manual, midi.org, the forums, Pro Tools software manual, etc. and I am spinning my wheels on this.

Thanks,
Eric

Comments

  • technicktechnick Registered User
    edited June 2011
    In the new software (3.1.1.7 so not that new...) you can make midi notes trigger cue lists!

    look for GM implementation documents on this forum...
  • AndrisAndris Registered User
    edited June 2011
    First off, are you on Hog PC or a console?
    You can trigger either MSC commands or MIDI note on messages (version 3.1.7 and above). Using notes to trigger cues is much simpler in an environment like Logic. You add your notes to a MIDI track in Logic and you move them on the timeline to sync up to the music.
    You can trigger comment macros or playback bar buttons (choose, play, halt, flash). Comment macros are more flexible and let you go to specific cues as well as just triggering 'GO' at the appropriate time in Logic.

    The hog manual details what actions are available under the Comment Macros section.
    I have attached the release notes from 3.1.7 via another thread which details the MIDI notes triggering functionality and how to set it up.
  • BBCLDBBCLD Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited June 2011
    I am on a full boar on the 3.9 release. I will have to play with the Logic software and see where I can go with that. Thanks for the info. I will play with it some more this week.
  • edited June 2011
    If you're looking to sync to music, MIDI Timecode is probably the best way to go. Have your music source send MIDI Timecode (MTC) to the console and setup your cuelist accordingly.

    MIDI Show Control (MSC) would be the second choice if you're using a show control program to supply the music that supports it.

    MiDI Notes would be a last resort.
  • AndrisAndris Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I disagree about MIDI notes being a last resort. For someone who is just figuring out how to trigger cues, note based triggers are a hell of a lot easier and less complex to implement than MTC. Drop a note where you want and you're done.
    If someone is familiar with Logic, note triggering is dead simple. I think it would be more efficient to map out cues in Logic using the timeline rather than mark MTC timings in cuelists on the hog, which takes longer. You can use Learn timing, but what happens when you want to make a bunch of subtle changes? You reposition the notes in Logic instead of re-learning timing or manually entering the new trigger frames.
    I also think you would have more flexibility with comment macros going the notes route.
  • Abbe RPM Digital LightingAbbe RPM Digital Lighting Registered User
    edited June 2011
    Hi Eric,

    Lots of good input in the thread all ready, and i thought i add a little.
    (Not trying to write you on the nose, just starting with some basics :) )

    Talking to people and as indicated here there is lots of different ways of going about the trigg of controller.
    MIDI GM is notes, where in theory a Button Press is sent from one device to another, it is organised as NOTES 0 - 127 and can be sent on 16 Channels.

    Picture 1
    This is implemented in the WHOS since 3.1.7 with 5 different trigg options.
    1. Programming Keys
    Where the Notes command can press any programming key ex NOTES 31 = RECORD
    2. Softkeys
    Where the Notes command can press any Soft Key from the two internal touch screens
    3. Playback Bar
    Where the Notes command can press any of the 10 Masters buttons
    (Actually any of the Playback Bar Console - #8)
    4. Macro
    Where the Notes command can press any of the 128 Available Comment macros, who in turn can fire just about any playback function in the desk.
    These are very helpful when you have a "dead" MIDI controller who can not map/patch outgoing NOTES to the desired function.

    MSC MIDI SHOW CONTROL
    This has been implemented in the WHOS for a long time and used to sync HOG to HOG etc.
    This is much more powerful than NOTES, but then also more complex, and not that common with external softwares.

    MTC MIDI TIME CODE
    In coming MTC This has been implemented in the WHOS for a long time and can be turned on and off for any CueList and is very useful when you want exact trigg of cues with click track/music.

    A few tips:
    - MIDI Notes and Timecode needs to be Turned On Per show and there is a few settings like "Only Trigg Forward" that can be useful.
    - MIDI Commands be sent from the WHOS
    - MSC Commands can be turned off from MIDI OUT
    - If you have a Fullboar it also has a native SMPT Timecode input, witch might be easier depending on your hardware.

    Showautomation can always be very challenging, but in the end very rewarding :)

    One way of going about you situation could be:
    - Have the ProTools soft send a Midi Note for each track you plan to play, triggering one of the MIDI Macros
    - That Macro Activates the TimeCode for the desired CueStack, who then follows the timecode created by the software. Last cue deactivates the TimeCode and the desk is then ready for the next track.

    I hope this helps you and if you need more guidance you can email me, i am in the european timezone.

    My very best good luck /Abbe
    abbe.westerlundh@barco.com
  • theligthingguytheligthingguy Registered User
    edited June 2011
    I do this weekly at my church. I have a HogiPC running all my lights and my Catalyst media server. We are using Protools for our click tracks. With MSC the hog will spit out System Exclusive commands that protools will record on a midi track. Protools sees them as "sysex" commands. These commands can be anything. Basically I just run the session and run my lights like normal while protools records all of my actions. It then will play back everything the same way I did it. Now I program everything in to cue lists and don't run anything except my hazer on the fly.

    I don't know if Logic does MSC or not, but if it doesn't, then I know that you can setup midi notes to trigger buttons on the console.

    Hope this helps.
  • BBCLDBBCLD Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited June 2011
    Thank you! This is all very helpful information. I still have a long way to go but I appreciate the help in getting started.
  • Cmy.dkCmy.dk Registered User
    edited July 2011
    The lighting guy@ your post is very interresting. Could you please give os more detaile ón how you dó this?
  • ajstubbyajstubby Registered User
    edited July 2011
    These posts have a lot of great info. I am new to the whole midi world, but I am looking at doing the opposite of what most of you are looking at. Instead of using click tracks to trigger something in Hog, I want to use Hog to trigger an event on a computer. We have a versatube rig that we run to a mac running G-Force, which is a visualizer creator. I am trying to figure out a way to send a command from the Hog to execute a script in G-Force. Right now, we have two seperate operators, which doesn't create a cohesive look. I am on a Hog3PC. Any help would be great.
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited July 2011
    Jake,

    It's pretty easy. You just put the midi string you need in the comment macro slot of the cuelist. Make sure you have MSC OUT enabled and have a MIDI cable plugged into the console.

    J
  • ajstubbyajstubby Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Thanks Jon,

    I've been searching the internet to get a better idea of how midi works. I understand more how it works, but I'm just not sure how to program it. I understand how note numbers control certain functions on the console, but I can't figure out how to control the computer from the console. Would you be able to give me an example of a midi string that could control a function on a computer?
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited July 2011
    Well, looking at G-force, I don't see anything about MIDI implementation. This means you'd have to come up with some pretty spiffy MIDI to keystroke implementation in order to trigger G-Force.

    I also found this software http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator that seems to be PC that might work. I've never used it, so I honestly have no idea.

    Normally when triggering things with Midi Show Control, there is a specific keystroke that needs to be sent. That is what goes in the Comment Macro slot.

    For instance...to trigger List 204 Cue 1, the string is $F07F01020101310032303400F7.

    That breaks down to a whole list of commands that the console understands.

    Hope that makes sense...
  • Cmy.dkCmy.dk Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Can you trigger flash buttons - with strobes etc. ?

    Thanks
  • tymontymon Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Cmy.dk wrote: »
    Can you trigger flash buttons - with strobes etc. ?

    Thanks

    with recent software versions you can do it even using notes.
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