Midi "Notes off"

sjaumesjaume Registered User
At first sorry for my bad english

Midi notes implemantation is really interesting for live concert ( one shot) , and let me having many shorcuts to Play Cue, etc....

So when a "Go cue list" is setted, the "note on" Go the cue, but the "note off" ( when you release the keyboard key) Go the next cue...............

It's really interesting, for example to configure a key as a flash ( options : no fader & add release and cue ).......

But not so interesting to go a cuelist......i have to record an empty cue ( played by the release of the key) between all cues

So ,i hope you have understood my problem........

Best regards

Sebastien JAUME

Comments

  • sandersander Registered User
    edited September 2010
    only the note on is used for commands, the note off is not used. so there is no need to record exta empty que's.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited September 2010
    are you sure.....i have tested the system yesterday, with an Roland AX 7 keyboard....I is sure : the "note off" commands as the same action as the "note on" command
  • sandersander Registered User
    edited September 2010
    i used hogPC and midiox, with my iphone connected running itm matrix, and that was working like i discribed before, so the note off wasn't doing anything at all.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited September 2010
    Hi sander, i have tested your configuration: with ITM matrix on iphone, etc.........actually it works perfectly as you said.

    So Itm matrix send a note off, but the last data value is different than a real keyboard.

    In fact :

    Itm matrix for iphone note off command: note off - C2 ( for example) - 64
    ........this command is ignored by wholehog software


    roland AX 7 keyboard note off command : note off - C2 - 0
    .......this command is recognized by Hog software like a note on command


    the last data command is different and have big consequences.


    In the first case : note off ignored.....to configure a key like a flash button is impossible, but easy to run cues

    In my case : ( note off/data0 recognized like a note on) : to configure a key like a flash button is simply ( with following options :fader/none.....add release end cue)


    The research was really interesting.
    Thank's sander because to share our experience was really interesting

    Can moderators have answer to this problem.

    best regards

    sebastien
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited September 2010
    I forgot :

    My system is a ROADHOG FULL BOAR + RH PB Wing + AX7 keyboard
  • cmuenchowcmuenchow Registered User, Administrator, HES Staff
    edited September 2010
    For every note on command you will want to eventually send a note off command or else the Wholehog software will consider the corresponding button to still be depressed. If all you send is note off commands then nothing in the Wholehog software should be responding.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited September 2010
    A note off is always send by a midi keyboard when you depress a key
    ...press : note on.......depress : note off

    But all the keyboards don't use the same value for the note Off.



    The problem is the Velocity note off value.......and in my case this value is 0.....and it is sure, wholehog recognize "note off" like a "note on"....it plays the next cue when i depress the key.

    With a another keyboard, which use the velocity note off=64.....no problem, but it don't allow me to configure a key as flash button
  • foxriderfoxrider Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited September 2010
    I experienced cues going with a note off as well. Am using a korg nano pad and when I press a button on the midi keyboard to trigger a note on, it runs a cue. When I release the button on the midi keyboard, it sends a midi note off and run the next cue.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited September 2010
    hi foxrider, can you analyse your midi note off message ? to know if the velocity note off data is at 0 or 64 or else.
  • cmuenchowcmuenchow Registered User, Administrator, HES Staff
    edited October 2010
    I have now tested with velocities set at 0, 64, and 128 in our test application and it appears the note on/off commands are working fine on the console at all velocities.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited October 2010
    So i'm really really surprised of your answer....

    I used yesterday, this keyboard "ax7" the run cues.......and it is sure when i release a key, i run a cue.

    I can't modify the note off velocity, but you know that, because it's a fixed value ( depending to the keyboard manufacturer ).
    I ll try to check that with i midi sequencer, in few days.

    best regards

    Sebastien




    But i will try with cubase ou logic, to understand
  • sandersander Registered User
    edited October 2010
    i was going a bit deeper in to this problem, and found out that the hog is only listening to the first two bits of the three bits command (all in hex).
    For example in midiox: note on is 90 04 64 and the hog reads the 90 as note on, and the 04 as the specified note and is denying the third bit.
    Again with midiox the note off command is 80 04 40, and the hog doesnot respond (and behaves like it should be) and is not listening to this command.

    But with for example automap or any keyboard, the note on command is less or more the same, but the note off command is: 90 04 00, in this the third bit makes this command a note off command, while the hog still listens again to the first two bits, which is saying: note on! (and the hog is now doing something, while the operater thinks it wouldn't do this!)
    Here is the difficulty in the midi-standard; i really would like to see that the hog is listening to both note off sentences.

    with regards,
    san
  • edited October 2010
    The third byte of a Note On or Note Off message is the velocity of that keypress. Your keyboard is sending a Note On with a velocity of zero instead of sending a proper Note Off message.

    Is this a common practice in the MIDI world? How many devices send "On with Zero velocity" instead of "Off"?

    To me this sounds like a bug in the keyboard. If the keyboard is trying to send a Note Off message, than it should send a Note Off. I'm concerned that if we re-define the Note On message, it could cause odd behavior on a keyboard that legitimately wants to send a zero velocity.
  • sjaumesjaume Registered User
    edited October 2010
    The keyboard really send note off........(not a note on with velocity at 0 )

    I think that Sander is on the goog way to find this bug.....
    Because i've tried to control the RHFB with LOGIC ( cubasis ), and i have the same results ( the note off message trig the next cue )...
  • sandersander Registered User
    edited October 2010
    I am using MidiOx to see what is really happening. When i use the keyboard of my laptop, to play notes (within MidiOx) then for example the following shows up:

    status data1 data2 chan note event
    90____32____64____1__D 3_Note On
    80____32____40____1__D 3_Note Off

    when i use Automap Standard (on my windows laptop) together with an app of Automap (on my iphone) and i toggle a button (programmed with note 32 aswell), then this is the output

    status data1 data2 chan note event
    90____32____7F____1__D 3_Note On
    90____32_____0____1__D 3_Note Off

    Automap is software from Novationmusic.

    And some years ago i attached a Yamaha-keyboard to midi and the hog (i mapped 'note on' to msc-commands with midiox), i remember the same thing was happening. ie, at the 'note on' something happened, but at the supposed 'note off' happened something aswell (while I didn't have anything mapped to a 'note off'). i found the same, for a 'note off' there was used a 'note on' command with velocity 0

    it could be that i have two things with the same bug, it's possible, but this is less likely.

    i hope this explanation helps.

    with regards,
    sander
  • srautanesrautane Registered User, Hog Beta
    edited October 2010
    http://th.atguy.com/techCorner/MidiReference.html

    This quite clearly says that there's two types of note off.

    This is also interesting.
    http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2286587
  • edited October 2010
    Looks like this is a MIDI convention, that the two are considered functionally identical.

    I've opened Issue #14392 to track this. It will likely be fixed in the next software patch release, although I don't have a time frame for that.
  • sandersander Registered User
    edited October 2010
    thanks!
  • snowmaniac153snowmaniac153 Registered User
    edited October 2010
    sorry to be the Newbe but you are saying you are getting a Midi keyboard to fire cues from your console?? can this be done with a IPC or would you need a midi widget??

    If you could break it down on how you hook it up, this would be great.
    how do you get to pick what key does what?? how do you view what is connected via Midi??

    I could ask questions all day long... A simple over view would be Great..
    Pre-thanks to all
  • jxgriffijxgriffi Registered User, DL Beta, Hog Beta
    edited October 2010
    Snow,

    Check out the release notes for the latest build (2826) here.

    http://www.flyingpig.com/support/downloads/releasenotes/Wholehog_v3.1.7_b2826_Release_Notes.pdf

    You'll see exactly how the notes are associated and what you can do with them.

    J
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